non-Macedonian style Phalanx - broken?

[Aper]

I think EB team did a mistake removing "phalanx" formation from Iphikratous Hoplitai and their kin: AFAIK they weren't supposed to be fast or agile, but to be effective and relatively cheap line-holders, thanks to their unusually long spears (still shorter than sarissa, though).

So, being the "phalanx" formation (WITHOUT "long_pike" attribute, or they'll get sarissa) the only way to have a solid wall of spears engaging more than one row at time, and nimbleness not being required for their tactical role, I think they should get back their old formation; this would provide a use for their pathetic shortswords, too.

EDIT: or we can try "short_pike" attribute without "phalanx" formation maybe.

[fomalhaut]

me and old iphrikates let me tell you, when we were discussing our revolution in hellenic warfare we meant for more than one row engaged at a time, that's for sure!

any EB or unofficial EB guys want to answer the previous questions? they are important to me as well, adding those traits may work?

[Aper]

I don't understand exactly what people mean in their replies, because of (our) poor english... and people posting incorrect information because they are too lazy to verify what they think to know before writing, so let's try to clear things up...

1) The ONLY way to have more than one row at time engaging the enemy is the "phalanx" formation: with that, if you give to the weapon just the "spear" or "light_spear" attribute, you'll have 3 rows fighting at the same time (an Iphikratous phalanx), if you give "long_pike" attribute too, 5 rows will fight together (and you'll have a sarissa phalanx). "short_pike" is utterly useless, I can explain why if requested.

2) longsword/spear & spear/shortsword combos are widely known to be buggy... and useless: longsword/spear works wonder... to frustrate you: making a unit that receive charges with swords and fights in melee with spears accomplish what? That the unit get slaughtered by cavalry charges and switches to low lethality spears when it's time to do the real kill... 'nuff said.
Spear/shortsword also has no sense in vanilla: why the heck you should switch to a secondary weapon that has lower attack, same lethality and weaker vs. cavalry?? Why don't just give to this units the spear only, like classical hoplites??
FIXES:
- for longsword/spears, get rid of the useless spear: it won't protect you from charges, and when you have high attack, high lethality sword, you don't need a spear to kill horses in melee. Also is tested and don't give any problem.
- for spear/shortsword, give "phalanx" to the thureos-armed (shield value: 3), widening to 1.1 their first value in the "formation" line to avoid clipping; remove the secondary weapon to the aspis-armed (shield value: 4), because they are armed like hoplites and should fight like EB hoplites, with spears only.
- for hoplites, add to them a value between 0.25 and 0.35 (the lower, the better) after the "mass" value (it's the last number) in the "soldier" line: this will make them fight more cohesively and spread less, a bit like guard mode, but without the downsides.

3) don't use BI, keep with ALEX: the AI is better, and BTW shield_wall is... silly and ludicrous, packing people so tightly they couldn't even breath, and providing hidden unbalancing boosts to stats (like "warcry" and "berserk" do). And you don't need to press a button and get unreasonable boosts to have an effective shieldwall: read the excellent "Guard Mode: a guide to formation fighting" from SFraser (the spaghetti monster bless you!)... it's just amazing!

Well, the rant is finished for now :)

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

I use the BI engine, but without using shieldwall. That's a good balance between slightly better AI and stability over RTW, but without the retraining of ALEX and the gamey shieldwall function.

[Kival]

Spear/shortsword also has no sense in vanilla: why the heck you should switch to a secondary weapon that has lower attack, same lethality and weaker vs. cavalry??

There are some additional things to consider: Animation (speed) and the defense penalty for light spear for example.

[Aper]

There are some additional things to consider: Animation (speed) and the defense penalty for light spear for example.

You are right, but animation speed impact on performance is not easy to quantify, and nobody really knows anything sure about "spear" and "light_spear" boni and mali, AFAIK... Anyway, I thought the somewhat poor performance of shortswords was a common complain among players, that's the reason why in MP semi-official EDU they have been strenghtened.