Legionary attack

[xzGAB]

I don't intend bad mouthing the amazing work the EB Team has been doing during all this time. First of all good job for you all.

I can see the attack points of roman main heavy infantry is the same for Camillian, Polybian and Marian soldiers. When I get marian soldiers I was hoping to get the best heavy infantry that conquered the world but I saw them being slaughtered by Libo-Phoenician spearmen at the walls and i realized attack points of LP Spearmen are high to my soldiers. Marian soldiers are professionals, why do they have the same attack than pre-marian soldiers? Thanks.

[bobbin]

Because they basically have the same weapons.

The Marain troops aren't supposed to be super soldiers, what they are is cheap, dependable heavy infantry with good morale and one of the biggest recruitment areas in the game.

[Populus Romanus]

Not true. Remember that they adopted the gladius after the Camillans! Their attack would be higher from that of the Camillan legions, because the gladius is a better weapon.

[Vaginacles]

But they are worse than the Polybian Principe in terms of cost/output. 700 more mnai for 2 less defense and 10 more soldiers doesn't seem to be fair to me.

That aside, the Roman reputation for military prowess came about due to the experience and training of the roman infantryman compared to other nations. When rome defeated Carthage, Macedon, Seleucia, and Iberians they were using polybian era troops. Get some experience points on them and they'll bulldose everyone.

[Julianus]

I believe this has been explained millions of times so I don't think it is necessary to do it all over again...
And I hope that in EBII this problem will be mostly solved. Yes, maybe most factions got elite units which are far better than common or even praetorian Roman legionary cohorts, but you can only have a handful of them. When it comes to the units that will be mass recruited, the Roman legions outclass everyone as a rule.

[CashMunny]

Yes, maybe most factions got elite units which are far better than common or even praetorian Roman legionary cohorts, but you can only have a handful of them. When it comes to the units that will be mass recruited, the Roman legions outclass everyone as a rule.

This is precisely one of the main strengths of the Roman military. Uniformity, reliability, and a clear chain of command allowing each individual unit to function independently if cut off from HQ were what made the Romans the superpower of Europe, not individual skill, as the Celts relied on, or powerful yet inflexible and cavalry dependent phalangites like the Macedonians relied upon. And when faced with skilled 'barbarian' commanders employing small unit tactics, the Romans often didn't fare so well. If the Germans or the Celts had developed more sophisticated small unit tactics before the Romans, the Romans could very well have been a mere footnote in history. And if the Macedonians hadn't neglected their hetaroi, they probably would have beaten the Romans rather soundly.

[xzGAB]

I think Marian men are more expensive than Polybian because the state provides weapons, training and armor. Polybian men are so cheap that is not economical use local soldiers of galia or iberia. With Marian reforms the local auxilia becomes more interesting.

But I can't understand because P, C and M men have the same attack. I was hoping something like more 2 or 3 attack points for M soldiers. I don't think i am going to do this, but is there anyway to change the attack and defense of a unit?

[athanaric]

But I can't understand because P, C and M men have the same attack. I was hoping something like more 2 or 3 attack points for M soldiers. I don't think i am going to do this, but is there anyway to change the attack and defense of a unit?

Attack isn't the only parameter. People here are forgetting that Polybian and Marian swordsmen have a better lethality than their Camillan predecessors. And the high attack of Camillan Principes comes from their main weapon being a spear, not a sword.

[CashMunny]

Yes, spears get penalties against sword wielding enemies, so their attack is set a bit higher, so they still slaughter horsemen, and have a chance against swordsmen, but are still at a disadvantage. Camillan and Marian principes/cohorts have +.03 to mass compared to Polybian principes, which doesn't do terribly much, but does help ever so slightly in melee. Also, the Marian cohorts come with more men than the Polybian principes and +1 to morale, at the cost of -2 armour. Yes, the Marians are more expensive due to state providing the equipment for their new prototype standing army. However, the increased manpower is what Marius set out to achieve, and this is reflected in their stats. By the time of Marius, the state could afford to spend money on the equipment, if they could only get bodies to fill the armour, and by the time that you get the Marian reforms, you should be able to fund them as well.

[xzGAB]

Ok, M and P men have more lethality than C because they use gladius. But my point is that comparing P and M soldiers (with each other) we don't see a great upgrade...aren't Marian soldiers professionals? I think they should have a little more lethality or some other upgrade, don't you? I would like to know historicaly too...in real life they were better than pre-marian men?

[Lysimachos]

Ok, M and P men have more lethality than C because they use gladius. But my point is that comparing P and M soldiers (with each other) we don't see a great upgrade...aren't Marian soldiers professionals? I think they should have a little more lethality or some other upgrade, don't you? I would like to know historicaly too...in real life they were better than pre-marian men?

Look at it this way: A polybian princeps may not be a professional soldier, but he is a veteran "out of the box", while a freshly recruited marian legionary is exactly that: a fresh recruit, who will only equal the princeps' experience after years of service (= gaining chevrons).

[bobbin]

Not true. Remember that they adopted the gladius after the Camillans! Their attack would be higher from that of the Camillan legions, because the gladius is a better weapon.

The Camillian Hastati only have 0.1 lethality for their swords, while the later Polybians, Marians and Imperials get 0.13. So their swords are better to reflect the change.

[athanaric]

That's what I was saying. One really needs to look at the full stats to be able to judge a unit. Therefore, legionaries =
+ huge AoR
+ decent lethality
+ AP javelins
+ low price
+ large unit size
+ excellent morale (15)
+ good stamina
+ good mass
+ large shield
+ well armoured

= very cost-efficient unit.

[fomalhaut]

yeah the discrepency between their base attack seems a really weird criticism considering the higher lethality and the stupidly numerous and, in my opinion, far better benefits like size and AOR

[xzGAB]

Lysimachos, thanks for the explanation, it really makes sense. But what if I compare Polybian Princeps with Cohors Evocata?
1- There is no great difference betwenn Cohors Evocata and Princeps because Pmen are already veteran, so they are at max skills.
2- There is difference between Cohors Evocata and Princeps because Cohors are professionals.
What is the right?

=========================
Athanaric, what is AoR?

========================

Thanks

PS:Am I boring you all with so many questions?

[A_Dane]

AoR stands for: Area of Recruitment :)

[xzGAB]

I think it would be a little off-topic but why is so important have a good mass? Afaik mass indicate the "push" your unit does to the enemy, but what is the great deal of this?

[Ca Putt]

oh it's acrually quite usefull as when the mass of your units is (significantly) lower than that of the enemies your guys are getting pushed trough streets/from walls/blocked at the gate/away from the flank/into an unfavorable formation most of it is siege related but it also is important in field battles.

oh I almost forgot: bridge battle - when your troops are too light they simply get pushed out of the vantage and make the way free for the enemy too por through your lines :

[SwissBarbar]

Look at it this way: A polybian princeps may not be a professional soldier, but he is a veteran "out of the box", while a freshly recruited marian legionary is exactly that: a fresh recruit, who will only equal the princeps' experience after years of service (= gaining chevrons).

This is a good explanation. I agree!

[xzGAB]

Mass is important to break phalanx formation and force phalangists to fight by swords instead of that long spears, am i right?

[CashMunny]

Mass is important to break phalanx formation and force phalangists to fight by swords instead of that long spears, am i right?

To some extent. A higher mass unit can push through the pikes and the first ranks of pikemen easier when doing a 'run through', while a unit with lower mass will have a harder time pushing through the formation.

[Pedro]

i agree with xzgab i think when you do the legionaries you already know a lot about them so you want to be fair for others but in the spartatia hoplitai we know and still is overrated, historically they werent the best infantry remeber that the register about the greeks is mostly written by greeks that makes them overrated and no acuraccy also ive looking about battles and they spartans lost a lot of battles they propose ceasefires 7!!!!!! times to Athens and the plague of atenas was a hit of luck for them , then in the corintos league they lost 2 of the most famous battles of Mantinea (362 a. C.) and leuctra 371 a. C. especially in leuctra the others cities kick their spartan ass !! so the corintos people werent trained a lifetime to be a soldier and they beat them! then i think if the arverni and the auedui have solduros and great man v man and the roman legionaries conquer them , doesnt that mean that the legionares are better? and iam only sayin this about the evocata and the cohors beacues i think the polybian and others are fair enought ! (except the velites and the leves) but infantry is fair soo i think you maybe reconsider about the cohors just a 2 points more in the cohors and 3 in the evocata doesnt make that the game were more easiest for the romans jus its more realistic ......... dont be angry is just my opinion great work eb team !!!

[xzGAB]

I am comparing Cohors Reformata (the standard) with Evocata; and Evocata with C and P Princeps

I think the professional marian soldiers should have more attack or lethality because I don't see any good reason to train evocata. They shoud tire very fast (cause they dont have the good stamina) and has a litte more defence. I think this defense value will mean nothing because they are going to be tired when still running for a charge, and tired soldiers die very very fast.
I think the only way to get advantage with evocata shoud be at a defensive city battle in the guard mode.

How can I change the attack value?

[vartan]

How can I change the attack value?

If you ever wish to experiment with trial and error changes of statistical values of units, just visit the EDU file. So in your EB folder you will find an sp edu backup folder. This folder contains the single player edu (export_descr_unit) text file which contains values for all units in the campaign. Use search features to find the respective unit, and alter its values. If you can't intuit the right value in the lines of text, correlating it to attack, defense, and so on, there is a guide somewhere on this forum, I believe by Aradan, which explains the EDU value tables. The fellows here can direct you there.

[xzGAB]

Ok, my mistake. I was comparing roman soldiers using the cards of Recruitment Viewer and it is wrong. Reformata have +3 defence and +1 attack, I just realized the fact and trained my first Evocata, let's see how much time they can fight without tire.

How can I fix the RV cards? There are a lot of units with wrong values of attack, defense and upkeep.

[moonburn]

well the evocata as the name implies where former soldiers that where called back on duty so technically they had the experience but no longer had the phisical prowess of when they where teenagers

[xzGAB]

Yeah, they cannot have the "good stamina" because they are getting old. But do you know how can I fix the problem with the cards?

[moonburn]

i am a -5 at moding sorry :\ i´m still thinking of undergoing the agoge of programing and moding

[vartan]

How can I fix the RV cards? There are a lot of units with wrong values of attack, defense and upkeep.

Hi xzGAB (stellar username)! Those RV cards are way outdated bro. There's no fixin' 'em now!

[jirisys]

Hi xzGAB (stellar username)! Those RV cards are way outdated bro. There's no fixin' 'em now!

Reminds us of Gabriella eh Vartan?

RV? Aren't attack and defense values automatically updated? Or am I missing the important RV part?

Are we going on a road trip Vartan?

~Jirisys ()