These People Make my Head Hurt

[Ice]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/TRAVEL/05/07...ex.html?hpt=T2

(CNN) -- An airline is investigating the removal of two imams from a flight headed to North Carolina, ostensibly because passengers felt uncomfortable with their presence of the pair -- both clad in Islamic attire.

The incident occurred Friday on an Atlanta Southeast Airlines flight from Tennessee to North Carolina and it involved Masudur Rahman and Mohamed Zaghloul were wearing traditional Muslim dress, CNN affiliate WCNC reported.

The two -- who hold high religious positions in the Muslim community -- were headed to North Carolina for a conference on prejudice against Muslims, or Islamaphobia. The meeting is sponsored by the North American Imams Federation.

Rahman, who is a professor at the University of Memphis, told the affiliate that the incident reminded him of the prejudice Rosa Parks faced during the civil rights movement.

"That history I found today in that plane, and it shouldn't happen with any other person," he said.

Atlantic Southeast Airlines, which operated the flight, said the incident is under investigation, and apologized "for any inconvenience that this may have caused."

Ibrahim Hooper, spokesman for the civil rights group Council on American-Islamic Relations, told CNN the two men contacted his office and said they were told that passengers were uncomfortable with them on the flight.

"They went through security, even went through secondary security, and got on the plane, were taxiing out," he said.

But then, they were taxied back, Hooper said.

"TSA came on and pulled them off and said the pilot was refusing to fly with them because passengers were uncomfortable with them," Hooper said, referring to the Transportation Security Administration.

Hooper said officials re-screened them and found they were no threat.

While officials tried to get the men back on the plane, "the pilot absolutely refused and ultimately took off," Hooper said.

The airlines did not say why the two men were taken off the flight, but said they were given the opportunity to fly on a different flight.

"Atlantic Southeast Airlines flight 5452 from Memphis to Charlotte returned to the gate to allow for additional screening of a passenger and the passenger's companion," the statement said. "We take security and safety very seriously, and the event is currently under investigation.

People are so terrible sometimes.

[PanzerJaeger]

Oh my. They missed a flight because they decided to dress in full, traditional Muslim garb on an airplane a couple of days after Osama Bin Laden was killed and people got spooked. That's definitely some Rosa Parks **** right there.

Somehow I get the feeling these guys were looking for a story to tell at their conference.

[Ice]

Oh my. They missed a flight. That's definitely some Rosa Parks **** right there.

Lol? Them missing the flight wasn't the reason for the Rosa Parks comment. Them being kicked off a plane for no reason other than people were uncomfortable around them, was the reason.

[Skullheadhq]

Lol? Them missing the flight wasn't the reason for the Rosa Parks comment. Them being kicked off a plane for no reason other than people were uncomfortable around them, was the reason.

It would have been hilarious if the pilot would have flown them back to the middle east

But that would have been *ahum* islamophobic.

[Brenus]

Come on, it is just pieces of clothing...
No meaning whatsoever, I was told for the Burka. They are free to wear what they what and to travel. USA is the land of the free isn’t it?
By the way, I do not remember that the Curran has any description of clothing for the Believers but I can be mistaken in this field…

[PanzerJaeger]

Lol? Them missing the flight wasn't the reason for the Rosa Parks comment. Them being kicked off a plane for no reason other than people were uncomfortable around them, was the reason.

Sensitivity and understanding go both ways. These people want to pretend like we don't live in a world where traditionalist Muslims fly planes into buildings on occasion. Now of course, if you sat down and thought about it, the guys who stand out the most as being Muslim probably aren't going to be your terrorists, but it still makes people uncomfortable. It's not racism or any anti-Islamic crap; it’s just how the current reality has conditioned them to respond - especially in the days after we killed the hijacker-in-chief.

An analogy. I love guns and would never even consider shooting someone in anger, and I'll stand up to defend my right to own them anytime and anywhere, but I wouldn't where a t-shirt with an Glock on it to a game at Virginia Tech - or to a Gabby Giffords speech. It sucks that a few fanatics have put a taint on one of my favorite interests, but that's life. It's all about discretion.

These people could have put on some jeans and a t-shirt and instead chose to be deliberately provocative in the setting they put themselves in. The result? They got bumped from a flight, profusely apologized to, and were given the next flight out. Comparing themselves to Rosa Parks is the height of arrogance and disrespect.

[Hax]

Sensitivity and understanding go both ways. These people want to pretend like we don't live in a world where traditionalist Muslims fly planes into buildings on occasion.

You make it sound like it's a hobby.

"Huh well, I already made love to this goat today, beat my four wives around, and it's only four PM. What should I do? Aha, I shall fly an airplane into a building!"

Now of course, if you sat down and thought about it, the guys who stand out the most as being Muslim probably aren't going to be your terrorists, but it still makes people uncomfortable. It's not racism or any anti-Islamic crap; it’s just how the current reality has conditioned them to respond - especially in the days after we killed the hijacker-in-chief.

No, it pretty much is discrimination. It suggests a correlation between people who wear Muslim garb and terrorism. And that's a bit silly.

It would have been hilarious if the pilot would have flown them back to the middle east

Sorry, you're just no ACIN.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Pff...

I can't believe these two were given free tickets for a later plane. So two Imams are headed to a conference on prejudice against Muslims, and go out of their way to provoke a reaction. What a circus. Like two priests suspiciously hanging around a kindergarten all day long a few days after another scandal breaks out, just so they can cry discrimination at their conference. The cheek of it all!

I hope somebody is checking to see of their citizenship can be revoked. I've had it up to here with these clowns.

Come on, it is just pieces of clothing...
No meaning whatsoever, I was told for the Burka. They are free to wear what they what and to travel.

[ajaxfetish]

Sounds like the pilot should be looking for a new job. They ran them three times through security. What's security there for if not to determine whether someone is a threat. There was no indication of any danger from the two. Yet another case of fear and security concerns trumping freedom. I do not like this trend.

Ajax

[Ronin]

people are morons...

these guys went though security...if the other people on the plane do not believe security did it's job and still feel threatened then they should be the ones to leave the plane.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Sounds like the pilot should be looking for a new job. They ran them three times through security. What's security there for if not to determine whether someone is a threat. There was no indication of any danger from the two. Yet another case of fear and security concerns trumping freedom. I do not like this trend.

Ajax

The security threat was the unrest amongst the passengers.

Also, coming not 24 hours after the solemn remembrance activities on Ground Zero, the pilot's thoughts may also have been closer to those of his colleagues that were butchered with box knifes than with two men who wear dresses on a plane just when AQ announced retaliatory terrorist acts.


I dislike discrimination of Muslims simply for being Muslim. I do not mind discrimination of two boys who insist on wearing matching trenchcoats to school one day after a high-profile remembrance of the Columbine High School massacre.

[Viking]

It has been assumed that these people would normally not use this sort of attire when taking airliners. Please provide sources for this.

[Centurion1]

Its just stupid to use that kind of attire within a week of bin ladens death. Is it right that they have been persecuted for this stuff? No. But it wasn't really very logical haha.

[PanzerJaeger]

No, it pretty much is discrimination. It suggests a correlation between people who wear Muslim garb and terrorism. And that's a bit silly.

It suggests a correlation between traditionalist Muslims and terrorism in the minds of many Americans, which isn't quite so silly.

I do not understand why they would want to wear such clothing in the current elevated risk environment. It isn't religiously mandated, so why make the other passengers uncomfortable?

The fact that they were on their way to a conference on discrimination makes the entire event highly suspicious. "Hey Mohamed, let's dress like the people everyone's watching on the news today and see just how tolerant this society really is."



I bet they're rock stars at the convention, heroes in their victimhood much like Rosa Parks.

It has been assumed that these people would normally not use this sort of attire when taking airliners. Please provide sources for this.

Who assumed that? Everyone is obliged to alter their behavior to a certain extent when traveling by air these days. There are a lot of things I wear in everyday life that I might not choose to wear when getting on an airplane, like shoes with laces.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Pff...

I can't believe these two were given free tickets for a later plane. So two Imams are headed to a conference on prejudice against Muslims, and go out of their way to provoke a reaction. What a circus. Like two priests suspiciously hanging around a kindergarten all day long a few days after another scandal breaks out, just so they can cry discrimination at their conference. The cheek of it all!

I hope somebody is checking to see of their citizenship can be revoked. I've had it up to here with these clowns.

I hope this is just you trying to be controversial by taking the unpopular position, Louis!

Your examples don't work because they are examples of people going out of their way to cause offense. Which is completely different to a traditionalist Muslim just wearing his everyday clothes. Trying to go about his daily business, only to get kicked off a plane because he happens to come from the same culture and accompanying dress sense of one guy who happens to be a well-known terrorist?

Does this mean at the height of the IRA bombing campaing, an Irishman travelling in the UK should have to fake an English accent since obviously his Irish accent might lead people into thinking he has planted a bomb somewhere?

Or when the FLQ caused a bit of a craze, should Francophone Quebecers have started talking English in public, since they might scare the English-speakers into thinking they are terrorists?

[CountArach]

Okay so two guys are kicked off a plane, having gone through all relevant security checks, because passengers are scared? The most distressing thing is what that implies for how deeply ingrained racial profiling is amongst members of the public.

I'm scared of whoever first raised that complaint.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I hope this is just you trying to be controversial by taking the unpopular position, Louis!

It is the 'cleric' wut dun it. I can't help myself anymore than a bull can help himself charging a red waving cloth.

Two average guys of Middle Eastern heritage - I'd have said this was a silly paranoid-racist thing to do.
Two clerics in dresses with long beards, well, then I'm inclined to say these two might have shown better judgement.



Me I'm a nudist. In fact, I am typing this post NAKED RIGHT NOW.

But when boarding a plane, I shave and take my monthly bath and put on appropriate attire. Other guys like to wear miniskirts with wigs and Lady Gaga make-up. Fine. But don't demand that your own private dresscode is appropriate everywhere, at all times.

Travelling by air in America is a tense affair. One can try to make some effort to your fellow passengers and crew to not to make it more tense than it already is. Certainly directly after the president commemorated 9-11 at ground zero and terror alert is high.

Much better than a show of force, or a provocation, or poorly timed complaints about safety measures, or going out of your way to create a buzz the day before your Islamophobia congress. I still wonder how hard these two tried to be discriminated against. How did they manage to get the plane to turn around long after everybody had boarded already?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

They were there to make a political statement and they did so.

Rahman is an adjunct professor at U Memphis, Zaghloul is an accomplished research/cancer physician. It is exceedingly unlikely that either was unaware of the possibility that they would generate a reaction.

They're point is that Americans discriminate against muslims who look/act like traditional muslims. They are, at least partly, correct. This is silly of course -- none of the 9-11 hijackers were dressed in muslim garb, as that would be poor tradecraft -- but there it is.

They will, no doubt, enjoy their 15 minutes. Who knows, this may even get Rahman a tenure track slot.

[Fragony]

Provocation succeeded pity is in, it's like the 9/11 mosque. I cannot buildz?

[Louis VI the Fat]

Some time ago another set of Imams boarded an internal US flight, flying from, not to, a congress:

Six imams were kicked off a US Airways flight last week in Minneapolis for committing several acts of suspicious behavior, not just because they said their evening prayers before boarding the plane, a police report shows, contradicting earlier media reports.

US Airways manager Robby Taylor Davis told police three of the six imams had one-way only tickets and only one passenger checked luggage. He also said in the police report that most of the six requested seat-belt extensions typically used by obese people despite being thin.
Also, a passenger on the plane who speaks Arabic heard the group mention Saddam Hussein and criticize the United States' involvement in Iraq. The passenger, whose named was redacted from the police report, said he saw two of the men take seats in the front of the plane, two take seats in the middle, and two more in the back.


Minneapolis police, along with U.S. Federal Air Marshals, decided the collective behavior of the group was suspicious enough to detain the men and question them.

Earlier reports only said the group had been seen praying loudly before the flight, and the group was removed after a passenger passed a note to a flight attendant bringing attention to the group, and did not include details on the other suspicious behavior of the imams.
The imams, who were returning from a religious conference, were detained and questioned before being released shortly thereafter.
"Pauline," a passenger on the flight who didn't want to give her real name for fear of her safety, said she thought the it was a stunt to garner media attention.
"They were so poised and ready to go to the press. By the time I arrived home from the airport ... they were already announcing on the news that they were being discriminated against," Pauline said on FOX News' Hannity and Colmes.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,...#ixzz1Lja3Nu1R

[Crazed Rabbit]

Okay so two guys are kicked off a plane, having gone through all relevant security checks, because passengers are scared? The most distressing thing is what that implies for how deeply ingrained racial profiling is amongst members of the public.

I'm scared of whoever first raised that complaint.

This is what the government wants:

Within minutes of a news conference at ground zero where authorities preached calm and vigilance after the killing of Osama bin Laden, the alarming 911 call came in.

The caller in Times Square on Monday afternoon reported that a suspicious package was sitting on the sidewalk at West 43rd Street and Eighth Avenue — a mere two blocks from where admitted terrorist Faisal Shahzad had failed in his frightening attempt to blow up a car bomb almost exactly a year earlier.

Unlike the Shahzad case, the scare fizzled out in a more familiar way: The New York Police Department patrol officers who swarmed the area quickly determined the package was a bag of garbage.
...
The volume of calls means more work for the NYPD, but Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly said the message stays the same: Keep them coming.

"We anticipate that with increased public vigilance comes an increase in false alarms for suspicious packages," Kelly said at the Monday news conference. "This typically happens at times of heightened awareness. But we don't want to discourage the public. If you see something, say something."

Reasonable approaches are, of course, ignored:

We've opened up a new front on the war on terror. It's an attack on the unique, the unorthodox, the unexpected. It's a war on different. If you act different, you might find yourself investigated, questioned and even arrested -- even if you did nothing wrong, and had no intention of doing anything wrong.
The problem is a combination of citizen informants and a CYA attitude among police that results in a knee-jerk escalation of reported threats.
...
Watch how it happens. Someone sees something, so he says something. The person he says it to -- a policeman, a security guard, a flight attendant -- now faces a choice: ignore or escalate. Even though he may believe that it's a false alarm, it's not in his best interests to dismiss the threat. If he's wrong, it'll cost him his career. But if he escalates, he'll be praised for "doing his job" and the cost will be borne by others. So he escalates. And the person he escalates to also escalates, in a series of CYA decisions. And before we're done, innocent people have been arrested, airports have been evacuated, and hundreds of police hours have been wasted.
This story has been repeated endlessly, both in the United States and in other countries. Someone -- these are all real -- notices a funny smell, or some white powder, or two people passing an envelope, or a dark-skinned man leaving boxes at the curb, or a cell phone in an airplane seat. The police cordon off the area, make arrests and/or evacuate airplanes, and in the end the cause of the alarm is revealed as a pot of Thai chili sauce, or flour, or a utility bill, or an English professor recycling or a cell phone in an airplane seat.
Of course, by then it's too late for the authorities to admit that they made a mistake and overreacted, that a sane voice of reason at some level should have prevailed. What follows is the parade of police and elected officials praising each other for doing a great job, and prosecuting the poor victim -- the person who was different in the first place -- for having the temerity to try to trick them.

CR

[Brenus]

What I really don’t understand is why they insist in wearing these clothes, as there is no signification whatsoever. Just cloths, it is not imposed/required by the Curran, not sacred, not holly, nothing like e.g. the various clothing on the Catholic Church.

Or, perhaps, may be, there is a signification. Perhaps when people wear “afghan” fashion clothes, as the Burka, is means something else than religious beliefs.

As far as I know, the biggest Muslim Country is Indonesia.
Why do these Imams don’t wear Indonesian Clothes?

[Rhyfelwyr]

A better question is why the **** does it matter what other Muslims wear and what the Koran says they should wear. We are supposed to be a free country and they are supposed to be able to live normal lives wearing what they like.

Barring nudity of course - won't someobody please think of the children!

[Ice]

Sensitivity and understanding go both ways. These people want to pretend like we don't live in a world where traditionalist Muslims fly planes into buildings on occasion. Now of course, if you sat down and thought about it, the guys who stand out the most as being Muslim probably aren't going to be your terrorists, but it still makes people uncomfortable. It's not racism or any anti-Islamic crap; it’s just how the current reality has conditioned them to respond - especially in the days after we killed the hijacker-in-chief.

An analogy. I love guns and would never even consider shooting someone in anger, and I'll stand up to defend my right to own them anytime and anywhere, but I wouldn't where a t-shirt with an Glock on it to a game at Virginia Tech - or to a Gabby Giffords speech. It sucks that a few fanatics have put a taint on one of my favorite interests, but that's life. It's all about discretion.

These people could have put on some jeans and a t-shirt and instead chose to be deliberately provocative in the setting they put themselves in. The result? They got bumped from a flight, profusely apologized to, and were given the next flight out. Comparing themselves to Rosa Parks is the height of arrogance and disrespect.

What a bunch of nonsense. As long as it conforms with law of the land, people should be free to wear whatever they want to on airline without discrimination. You act as though people in tradiational islamic attire are highjacking planes daily and the only way to stop them is by profiling.

These people want to pretend like we don't live in a world where traditionalist Muslims fly planes into buildings on occasion. Now of course, if you sat down and thought about it, the guys who stand out the most as being Muslim probably aren't going to be your terrorists, but it still makes people uncomfortable. It's not racism or any anti-Islamic crap; it’s just how the current reality has conditioned them to respond - especially in the days after we killed the hijacker-in-chief.

Yes it is racism and anti-islamic crap. That is the very essence of the situation.

[Furunculus]

But when boarding a plane, I shave and take my monthly bath and put on appropriate attire. Other guys like to wear miniskirts with wigs and Lady Gaga make-up. Fine. But don't demand that your own private dresscode is appropriate everywhere, at all times.

Travelling by air in America is a tense affair. One can try to make some effort to your fellow passengers and crew to not to make it more tense than it already is. Certainly directly after the president commemorated 9-11 at ground zero and terror alert is high.

More or less my view. i adapt my life to make it easier for airport security, and by extension myself, and it isn't unreasonable to expect the same from others.

Not just tense, it is another universe post 911.
Pre 911 there was always the potential of a hijacking until the SAS made it unpopular, you sat quietly in your seat without making a fuss until the negotiators succeeded or the flash-bangs went of, hoping all the while that you wouldn't be the 1 in a 100 who selected to be made an example of.
Post 911 it does not matter what level of personal danger you face, or bring down upon other innocent passengers, if 'beardy' hijackers pop-up you have one choice and one chance; go utterly bat-p00p crazy and don't stop until your dead or you're drenched in his blood and you've choked the life out of him with his own entrails!
The alternative is watching mute as you and a hundred other people fly into a skyscraper to the cries of "allah ahkbar!"

That 'heightened' tension justifies concessions........... from everyone!

[Skullheadhq]

Provocation succeeded pity is in, it's like the 9/11 mosque. I cannot buildz?

This, they could have dressed like normal people and never have been kicked out.
When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

[Slyspy]

normal people

Quality.

[Jaguara]

The absolute absurdity of all of this is that while they remove the imams from the plane for dressing in traditional garb, the actual extremist with the bomb is sitting on the plane dressed as a college frat boy.

Please cite me with one example where a terrorist hijacked a plane while dressed in traditional garb...

All of these arguments amount to the justification of racism, and have nothing to do with security. The fact that the ignorant public have associated this dress with extremists is not something that should be indulged at the expense of other's rights. These men have the right to dress in the manner of their choosing. The fact that these were religious leaders makes it all the more glaring. While some priests may choose not to wear their collar at times, many others will wear it under all conditions. It is their right to do so, and while it may result in some distasteful or ignorant comments being slung at them, it should not result in violence or discrimination.

[Strike For The South]

I dislike discrimination of Muslims simply for being Muslim. I do not mind discrimination of two boys who insist on wearing matching trenchcoats to school one day after a high-profile remembrance of the Columbine High School massacre.

While I have a moticum of sympathy for such a position your anaolgy is flawed

A better one would be a priest showing up at a daycare

While I agree that these men were fishing, the public certainly took it hook, line, and sinker

[Louis VI the Fat]

While I have a moticum of sympathy for such a position your anaolgy is flawed

A better one would be a priest showing up at a daycare

Tsk...for how long have we known each other now?

You need to get up pretty early in the morning to get in the child-molesting priest reference before me. I needed only eight posts this thread.