Is the Tosa cup worthless?

[AMP]

If you charge your cav against vetted bow cav, you will get picked to pieces, they will retreat, and if you chase too long after them, you will get overwhelmed by their superior meele cav. So charging bow cav when you are inferior in the meele cav department is only a way of getting yourself hit by arrows.

Yeah that's why I have so much trouble beating heavy bow cav armies in MM when I face them, thanks for the insight...

There is no build good enough to beat any build you come across.

And you know this for a fact? If this is true I haven't had this problem with my standard build in my 400+ 1v1 MM games. I would like to face a build that I know I can't beat 0% chance with my standard build in 14k games.

I'll say this again... sitting there getting shot to pieces won't help you beat a bow cav setup like that, that's for sure. And at the start of the match leaving your 4 archers away from your main body makes no sense at all.

[Nigel]

Hmm, I have the impression we are discussing 2 different questions now:

A: Are the tournament rules good?
B: Are spam armies overpowered?


For A I think we can say that the rules are “pretty good but can be improved”, or perhaps they are “not really good and can be improved” but I think the difference between those is personal preference. In any case there should be lessons learned.

For B perhaps this could be the topic of its own thread, not related to the tournament at all.

[Swoosh So]

Hmm, I have the impression we are discussing 2 different questions now:

A: Are the tournament rules good?
B: Are spam armies overpowered?


For A I think we can say that the rules are “pretty good but can be improved”, or perhaps they are “not really good and can be improved” but I think the difference between those is personal preference. In any case there should be lessons learned.

For B perhaps this could be the topic of its own thread, not related to the tournament at all.

I thought we were discussing Oda's ego?

[Oda]

Yeah that's why I have so much trouble beating heavy bow cav armies in MM when I face them, thanks for the insight...

And you know this for a fact? If this is true I haven't had this problem with my standard build in my 400+ 1v1 MM games. I would like to face a build that I know I can't beat 0% chance with my standard build in 14k games.

I don't know what your build is nor do I care. If you are too archer/yari heavy, you will get destroyed by a loansword/katana cav rush army. If not, then you are weak to bow cav spam. The only alternative to have an army that is "good against everything" is to spam matchlocks and camp.

I'll say this again... sitting there getting shot to pieces won't help you beat a bow cav setup like that, that's for sure.

No ****, Sherlock?

And at the start of the match leaving your 4 archers away from your main body makes no sense at all.

It makes sense for me. If you can't understand why, then it's your problem.

[OUT4BLOOD]

I'd love for you to explain why the archers were there, maybe we can learn something

[AMP]

I don't know what your build is nor do I care. If you are too archer/yari heavy, you will get destroyed by a loansword/katana cav rush army. If not, then you are weak to bow cav spam. The only alternative to have an army that is "good against everything" is to spam matchlocks and camp.

Where is this coming from and who mentioned the build had to be archer/yari heavy? I disagree matchlock spam is very much beatable and isn't good against everything. All it takes is ranged bows to constantly bait and pull, so that = not good against everything. Infact that bow cav army would dominate a matchlock spam, lol.

Well you say no **** sherlock, so why then did you just sit and made no effort?

It makes sense to you yeah sure, but not to many other people I bet. Leaving your bows away from your main body only to have your main body get pecked at... yeah that makes tons of sense. Wait no you're gonna scare them away with your vanilla matchlock guns 100 range to 150 and 2 vs 6 mhmm.

[Oda]

Where is this coming from and who mentioned the build had to be archer/yari heavy? I disagree matchlock spam is very much beatable and isn't good against everything. All it takes is ranged bows to constantly bait and pull, so that = not good against everything. Infact that bow cav army would dominate a matchlock spam, lol.

Well you say no **** sherlock, so why then did you just sit and made no effort?

It makes sense to you yeah sure, but not to many other people I bet. Leaving your bows away from your main body only to have your main body get pecked at... yeah that makes tons of sense. Wait no you're gonna scare them away with your vanilla matchlock guns 100 range to 150 and 2 vs 6 mhmm.

You must feel very intelligent when pointing out the obvious, don't you? A matchlock spam usually implies spamming 200 range monks too. So mass bows do NOT work to counter matchlock-spam, unless you want to pick a bow-heavy army, which is useless against a meele spam.

I rush my archers to the forest because 80% of the time I am inferior in the archer fight. Lining them up and getting them shot to pieces is not an option. If I keep them in the forest however, I can skirmish out of it and either

a) win the archer battle although inferior, or
b) take the plateau and use the space advantage to maneuver my superior meele/cav army to victory, or
c) force my opponent to engage in the forest and win the meele.

In any scenario, I have won 100% of the time when I used this strategy. Avoiding the enemy where he is strong, striking him where he is weak, this is the art of war.

And regarding the battle against cav-spam:
If I had my archers up front there, I would have lost them all, and had no chance of winning even if camping the forest. Sacrificing some matchlock ashigaru, who were useless in the upcoming skirmish, and bailing out my archers was by far the best and only way to deal with this. So I had an chance of fighting back, even if outgunned.

[chrisj]

I don't know why you're quoting Sun Tzu when you're talking about a battle where you've done the exact opposite of the quote.

[xploring]

I have never played MP because I'm rubbish, but I thought something like the Armageddon rule in chess could be used to break the deadlock of two camping parties. In chess, if the score is even after an even number of games between two players, sometimes the Armageddon game is used to decide the winner. White who has the first move, would get 5 minutes for the game, and Black only 4 minutes, but White has to win and Black would only need to draw to "win" the match. Who gets white or black is decided by flip of a coin, or something similar.

That could apply to MP too by giving the two players different amount of money but making the richer player attack. The money difference can initially be decided by "auctioning" the attack position by raising the attack budget incrementally, then later aggregate the results after a number of games has been played and find the average gap for a fixed budget... Anyway, just an idea...

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

You people take this game way to serisouliy, some of you guys need to get a life .

[AMP]

You must feel very intelligent when pointing out the obvious, don't you? A matchlock spam usually implies spamming 200 range monks too. So mass bows do NOT work to counter matchlock-spam, unless you want to pick a bow-heavy army, which is useless against a meele spam.

I rush my archers to the forest because 80% of the time I am inferior in the archer fight. Lining them up and getting them shot to pieces is not an option. If I keep them in the forest however, I can skirmish out of it and either

a) win the archer battle although inferior, or
b) take the plateau and use the space advantage to maneuver my superior meele/cav army to victory, or
c) force my opponent to engage in the forest and win the meele.

In any scenario, I have won 100% of the time when I used this strategy. Avoiding the enemy where he is strong, striking him where he is weak, this is the art of war.

And regarding the battle against cav-spam:
If I had my archers up front there, I would have lost them all, and had no chance of winning even if camping the forest. Sacrificing some matchlock ashigaru, who were useless in the upcoming skirmish, and bailing out my archers was by far the best and only way to deal with this. So I had an chance of fighting back, even if outgunned.

Well then you should've said matchlock spam with range 200 monks as well, so what excatly is this build then, all guns and bows that is unbeatable? Like I said I never faced an unbeatable build, but I'd sure like to just to see what it consists of. Inspire and Rapid Volley are getting nerfed, so will this build which you didn't tell me 100% what it consists of still be unbeatable?

You're an art of war master just not against cav-spam? Bummer dude.

Sitting there feeding him your troops little by little was the 0% chance way of winning...

[Gregoshi]

This thread appears to have lost its way and has devolved into an invigorating run on a hamster wheel.