Religion, moral and values.

[HoreTore]

The last 50 years has seen a drastic decline the number of religious people in western europe. In that timeframe, we have also seen:

-drastic economic growth among the general population
-women accepted as equals instead of lesser people
-pre-marital sex is now the norm and fully accepted
-gays are more accepted than ever before
-positions of power are no longer reserved for white, hetrosexual males
-most blasphemy laws and other such restrictions of free speech have finally been removed
-democracy is spread around the world
-universal rights and benefits like healthcare
-abortion is completely legal and accepted
-violence is no longer an accepted form of child-rearing
-neither is violence in marriage accepted

I could go on all day, but I believe this is enough for now.

[Skullheadhq]

-pre-marital sex is now the norm and fully accepted
-gays are more accepted than ever before
-positions of power are no longer reserved for [...], hetrosexual males
-most blasphemy laws and other such restrictions of free speech have finally been removed
-abortion is completely legal and accepted

Doesn't sound so moral to me, quite the opposite, in fact.

Well, the Ten Commandments most christians point to when claiming moral superiority, are filled with human rights abuses and other evil, and I consider those them the pinnacle of immorality.

Modern liberal '(human) rights' crybabyism is not the same as morality.
Then again, I was not thinking about Christianity specifically. Judaism, Islam, Hinduism and the likes also instill a somewhat good moral code into the minds and hearts of its believers, it's just that atheism spreads immorality.

[HoreTore]

Doesn't sound so moral to me, quite the opposite, in fact.

No, but for me, this is morality. To me, the opposite view is immorality.

Modern liberal '(human) rights' crybabyism is not the same as morality.

I fell like doing a breakdown of the collection of abuses usually called the ten commandments(lutheran version):

1: I am the Lord your God. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol.

ORLY?

This is totalitarianism. A human is free to think as they please, and choose how they please. I can't make me an idol? Have a look at my freedom of expression, and go join Stalin, Daffy and all the other dictators who gain sexual pleasure from controlling the minds of their population.

2. Do not take the name of the Lord in vain.

I can and I will, freedom of speech is vital in any society. Can't handle that? Go hide in a corner.

3. Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy.

No. Just no. I will work when I get the chance, at any day. I can organize my personal life on my own, thankyouverymuch.

4. Honor your father and mother.

No, I will not honour my parents because they are my parents. I will honour them if they in turn honour me. If they don't, I won't. Honouring people solely based on blood and kinship is plain stupidity, and the basis of any racist.

5. You shall not kill/murder.

Well duuuuuuuuuuuh... I am perfectly capable of knowing that killing other people is bad, I don't see the need for anyone to tell me that. What makes this commandment bad, is that it is used to justify the list.

6. You shall not commit adultery.

Yes, I will. Pre-marital sex is good and healthy, plain and simple.

7. You shall not steal

Same as for number 5.

8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

Again, same as for number 5.

9. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife.

Excuse me, but my neighbors wife is not his possession. She is not his to keep, if I want her and she wants me, it's right for us to be together.

10. You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor.

Yes, I should want to own his possessions. This is the driving force of the capitalist economy, the desire to own more and more. This in turn has created extra-ordinary economic growth and is the reason why we have so good living conditions today. If I see a man living in a castle, I shouldn't be indifferent to it, I should desire to one day live in that casatle, which will motivate me to work hard, for the benefit of myself and society.

[Skullheadhq]

No, but for me, this is morality. To me, the opposite view is immorality.



I fell like doing a breakdown of the collection of abuses usually called the ten commandments(lutheran version):

1: I am the Lord your God. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol.

ORLY?

This is totalitarianism. A human is free to think as they please, and choose how they please. I can't make me an idol? Have a look at my freedom of expression, and go join Stalin, Daffy and all the other dictators who gain sexual pleasure from controlling the minds of their population.

2. Do not take the name of the Lord in vain.

I can and I will, freedom of speech is vital in any society. Can't handle that? Go hide in a corner.

What makes freedom of speech absolute?

3. Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy.

No. Just no. I will work when I get the chance, at any day. I can organize my personal life on my own, thankyouverymuch.

Thank you for destroying small shops by being egoistic

4. Honor your father and mother.

No, I will not honour my parents because they are my parents. I will honour them if they in turn honour me. If they don't, I won't. Honouring people solely based on blood and kinship is plain stupidity, and the basis of any racist.

This disrespect is what's destroying society.

5. You shall not kill/murder.

Well duuuuuuuuuuuh... I am perfectly capable of knowing that killing other people is bad, I don't see the need for anyone to tell me that. What makes this commandment bad, is that it is used to justify the list.

6. You shall not commit adultery.

Yes, I will. Pre-marital sex is good and healthy, plain and simple.
Long live AIDS and immorality, huh?

7. You shall not steal

Same as for number 5.

8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

Again, same as for number 5.

9. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife.

Excuse me, but my neighbors wife is not his possession. She is not his to keep, if I want her and she wants me, it's right for us to be together.
Thanks for destoying families.

10. You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor.

Yes, I should want to own his possessions. This is the driving force of the capitalist economy, the desire to own more and more. This in turn has created extra-ordinary economic growth and is the reason why we have so good living conditions today. If I see a man living in a castle, I shouldn't be indifferent to it, I should desire to one day live in that casatle, which will motivate me to work hard, for the benefit of myself and society.

I hope it makes you happy

[HoreTore]

I hope it makes you happy

Oh it makes me very happy, which is why I love life here in western europe, and feel its just getting better and better.

[Skullheadhq]

Oh it makes me very happy, which is why I love life here in western europe, and feel its just getting better and better.

http://www.google.nl/#hl=nl&source=h...56f642a2cc9723

[Shibumi]

Ironside, winning post there.


Skullheadhq, I did not expect to meet someone like you on this side of the millennium. If you defend the view that religious people have better moral than atheist ones, then how can you explain such things as crime statistics, birth statistics - and so on?

If your view were true, the USA would see way less crime than, say, atheist Sweden.

International level aside, I guess then that your prisons are filled with atheists?

Another Example, Japan has a very very very low percentage of christians, yet their criminal record is the lowest in the world (IIRC). How do you explain this? Are they simply all secretly christian, or what?

I do not think you have thought this through.

[Skullheadhq]

If your view were true, the USA would see way less crime than, say, atheist Sweden.

Sweden has less 'minorities'.
Also, 'that idea is old and thus wrong' sounds like a fallacy to me.

[Shibumi]

In Sweden, it is the "minorities" that has a belief in God.

Mainstream population is atheist.

For you to be right we should thus get better and better morals the more immigrants we accepted.

[Ironside]

Modern liberal '(human) rights' crybabyism is not the same as morality.
Then again, I was not thinking about Christianity specifically. Judaism, Islam, Hinduism and the likes also instill a somewhat good moral code into the minds and hearts of its believers, it's just that atheism spreads immorality.

So aethists doesn't know morals, because that's the job for old dudes (there's always old dudes for this) that lived for more than 1000 years ago? That or the first commandment is about the existance of more than one god...

3. Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy.
No. Just no. I will work when I get the chance, at any day. I can organize my personal life on my own, thankyouverymuch.

Thank you for destroying small shops by being egoistic

That's why God invented Saturday. No, wait we came up with that one ourselves. Or the national day or any non-religious red day.

4. Honor your father and mother.

No, I will not honour my parents because they are my parents. I will honour them if they in turn honour me. If they don't, I won't. Honouring people solely based on blood and kinship is plain stupidity, and the basis of any racist.

This disrespect is what's destroying society.

Indeed, lets reintroduce the death penalty for disobedient children.
- Leviticus 20:9:
For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

How dare the children curse their parents when they're getting sexually abused and beaten.

6. You shall not commit adultery.

Yes, I will. Pre-marital sex is good and healthy, plain and simple.
Long live AIDS and immorality, huh?

We have condoms and basing a marriage on love and/or personal compatabillity instead of politics or a crush might not always be the best, but it's an improvement on average.

9. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife.

Excuse me, but my neighbors wife is not his possession. She is not his to keep, if I want her and she wants me, it's right for us to be together.
Thanks for destoying families.

It might actually be that gender biased. But I digress.
Since it takes two to cheat, it's a sign that not all is well inside that family. Sometimes, they're better off breaking up. It's not the nicest thing, since cheating is always a break of trust, but that's hardly something that should be criminalised, but handled by the parts involved (that involves breaking up, divorce, accepting it or trying to fix what's wrong).

[Scienter]

-pre-marital sex is now the norm and fully accepted
-gays are more accepted than ever before
-positions of power are no longer reserved for [...], hetrosexual males
-most blasphemy laws and other such restrictions of free speech have finally been removed
-abortion is completely legal and accepted

Doesn't sound so moral to me, quite the opposite, in fact.

Are you actually saying that it is immoral for people other than heterosexual males to occupy positions of power? Care to share your reasoning for that?

[Skullheadhq]

-pre-marital sex is now the norm and fully accepted
-gays are more accepted than ever before
-positions of power are no longer reserved for [...], hetrosexual males
-most blasphemy laws and other such restrictions of free speech have finally been removed
-abortion is completely legal and accepted



Are you actually saying that it is immoral for people other than heterosexual males to occupy positions of power? Care to share your reasoning for that?

Women in positions of power, LOL!

[Subotan]

And I mean it

[Major Robert Dump]

The troll has reared its head. Subtle at first, but now apparent he was trying to draw some of our more religiously conservative folks into the fray by agreeing with him. Based on his previous posts in the BR, I thought he was acting out of character.

GG

[Rhyfelwyr]

Skullheadq - from this and other threads, I do not think you like modern society very much.

But I think if anything we live in a more moral world today in the past. I attribute this to the increasing (historically speaking, and only reversed very recently) dominance of the nuclear family, and the decline of the working-class, and in turn its absorbance into the middle-class and its more traditional Christian (and post-Christian) values.

It's hard to describe what I mean, but these social conditions create a really stifling atmosphere when it comes to morality. Like with teh gays. In Wahhabi Saudi Arabia, there was an article somewhere about how its a haven for gay people, because most people don't really care about it, desipte the fact that the country's religious laws carry the death penalty for sodomy.

On the other hand, if you are gay in the Bible belt, you might not face any legal problems, but you will be hounded of of your family, school, work, church etc.

As for pre-marital sex, I am not necessarily again it. Having dropped that bomb, I will now leave you all in suspense as to what wonderfully interesting opinion I could have on the matter.

[HoreTore]

Ten bucks says Rhy got a hawt threesome after some heavy drinking saturday night, and now tries to justify his actions.

[Strike For The South]

Ten bucks says Rhy got a hawt threesome after some heavy drinking saturday night, and now tries to justify his actions.

It's becuase he's getting swole!