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    Default Some questions regarding EBII's Saka horse trappings

    (I'm not a native english speaker, so please disregard the quite high-strung phrasing and the probably unintended hostile and confrontative wording , any bolding is purely for emphasis and to prevent misunderstandings)

    Recently, a new Twitter update showcased the as usually marvellous EBII unit modelling:

    Saka are getting finally some love, an elite model got finished: http://bit.ly/jaJhgn http://bit.ly/llHpK2 http://bit.ly/ls7GQL ~Tux
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    I always had the impression that the elaborate 'Altai-Scythian' horse trappings - especially the spectacular horse head gear from the Pazyryk kurgan burials - were primarily ceremonial in nature - essentially comparatively seldom used prestigious parade gear (IIRC they show 'wear and tear', but no identifiable battle damage) and probably especially made or at least substantially refurbished for the funeral procession of the deceased elite warriors.

    Given the often stated historical authenticity the EB II team strives for their mod, this prompted the question:Was the elaborate Pazyryk antlered horse head gear really used in battle - as it will be in EBII?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Two EB II team members - Bobbin in answer to a previous similar question from moonburn -
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by moonburn View Post
    [...]anyway that looks like an horse decorated in a pretigious way and not a mount for war consisting of reindeer
    Quote Originally Posted by bobbin View Post
    There are actually depiction of horses with that type of headgear in battle, so we know it was used during combat.
    and I Am Herenow - in response to a rather poorly phrased question () from me -
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by I Am Herenow View Post
    Well, here are just some of the pictures from the unit concepting thread, chosen somewhat at random (there were about twice as many pertaining to the horses alone; then more still pertaining to the other elements such as the pickaxes):

    https://img718.imageshack.us/g/45186990.jpg/

    I Am Herenow

    Addendum: I was not the original creator of the aforementioned unit concepting thread and know nothing about Saka history; I just happen to have come across your post and thought I would answer it.
    answered in the affirmative:


    I Am Herenow posted four rather randomly selected pictures from the corresponding unit conception thread, three of which I already knew - the Pazyryk-1 horse mask with 'deer antlers' , the horned Pazyryk-1 horse head gear (both C14 radiocarbon dated to ca. 305-288 BC) and the 4th century BC horse harness from the Bolshaya Tsimbalka kurgan in the Ukrainian Dnieper Basin , all exhibited in the Hermitage, St Petersburg.

    These pictures undeniably show the use of rather elaborate horse trappings in an at least funeral context - these rich trappings decorated sacrificed horses buried with their owners - but sadly they don't conclusively prove the use of those trappings in battle.

    This curious Greek vase painting I Am Herenow posted is IMHO not really conclusive evidence for the use of such horse trappings in a 'Scythian' context - there are strange iconographical peculiarities: this shoulder-frieze(?) of an late archaic (520/510 BC? - 250 years before the Pazyryk burials!) amphora or hydria (?) seems to depict completely naked riders - not wearing the typical Scythian costume - wielding slings - not the typical Scythian composite bows with gorytoi- atop strange rather goatlike mounts (compare the short, stubby tails and the prominent 'beard' completely absent on the Pazyryk finds - not to mention the lack of otherwise always clearly visible horse tails!) - taking this to accurately depict 'Scythian' or precisely Central Asian 'Saka' riders seems quite farfetched.

    So, let me ask two relatively simple questions:

    1.Is this the sole pictorial source, on which the use of the elaborate antlered Pazyryk horse gear or similar horse trappings for EBII's Saka elite cavalry is based?

    2.Could a team member, ideally the 'unit conceptor' please cite the academical source(s) in which this depiction is covered and analyzed and name the academical publication(s) which treat the Pazyryk trappings as horse trappings used in battle?


    Thanks in advance - if it's to much of an hassle please simply disregard this post.

    (Please bear in mind that this 'wall of text' is purely 'constructive criticism' by a interested archaeology student intended to enhance the historical accuracy of EBII)
    Last edited by Lvcretivs; 05-26-2011 at 15:55.


    '...usque adeo res humanas vis abdita quaedam:opterit et pulchros fascis saevasque secures:proculcare ac ludibrio sibi habere videtur.' De rerum natura V, 1233ff.

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