Possible ban on halal/kosher meat in the Neds

[Fragony]

The bigest problem with this is that it glorifies our industrial agriculture, ACIN, as people start believing the lie that our treatment of animals is somehow "humane".

Which is nonsense. We optimize for profit, not animal welfare.

I'm okay with that, however, which is why I also have no problem with kosher.

Nobody has doubts about the industry, although it isn't as bad as some think, rules are pretty strict (here at least). Like described in 'Fast Food Nation', well it doesn't go like that over here. The scale is morbid of course.

[Viking]

well, somebody else's delicacy could be cruelty for some... it's unfortunate indeed... but if we use the same judgements, Indians could protest Europeans that ate cows, because they are sacred and shouldn't be eaten.

No, now you are mixing things up. There are concerns about the welfare about animals because we believe that it causes them suffering if they are treated badly. The pain that a cow feel is irrelevant to whether some people consider the animal holy or not.

...
We breed them to be slaughtered and eaten, slitting their throats is hardly crueler than that.

It would only be cruel if they could understand the plot and feel uneasy about it, something which I doubt.. Either way, cruelty does not excuse more cruelty.

[HoreTore]

False dichotomy. It is not given that "our way" is scolding it alive. Do you somehow know that every slaughterhouse in Europe and North America scolds them alive?

Yes, every slaughterhouse that sedates chickens with electroshocks ends up scolding quite a few of them alive. The alternative is of course to choke them with CO2, sounds like fun.

Not that I care, I bought enough chicken products yesterday to last till the end of the month. It's food, not humans.

[HoreTore]

Either way, cruelty does not excuse more cruelty.

True.

But perhaps we should take care of the worst cruelty first, then worry about the less cruel stuff afterwards? Remove the log before the splinter, as some might say....




As long as fur farms are still around, animal welfare is a joke. Same goes for the outrageous long distances animals are transported in Europe.

[Kralizec]

Earlier this month I visited my parents and we had a discussion about this subject. Back then, I argued pretty much the same thing as HoreTore: there are numerous other issues about the meat industry that should be adressed, before taking on a relatively minor one like this - especially if the latter will also alienate some religious groups.

But now that HoreTore is saying it, I don't know what to think...

[HoreTore]

Earlier this month I visited my parents and we had a discussion about this subject. Back then, I argued pretty much the same thing as HoreTore: there are numerous other issues about the meat industry that should be adressed, before taking on a relatively minor one like this - especially if the latter will also alienate some religious groups.

But now that HoreTore is saying it, I don't know what to think...

Don't worry: I frequently agree with Frags, and that one time hell froze over, me and Furunculus was also in perfect agreement!

[Samurai Waki]

Nobody has doubts about the industry, although it isn't as bad as some think, rules are pretty strict (here at least). Like described in 'Fast Food Nation', well it doesn't go like that over here. The scale is morbid of course.

Perhaps in the Neds... it's an absolute disgrace for the USA and it's mostly because people are hopelessly addicted to processed meat, say the words "Cut back a bit if you can't afford good quality" doesn't ring with many people here... so bad quality has absorbed the market, and nobody cares because of government subsidies that have choked the profitability out of sustainable and dare-I-say humane ranching/farming methods.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Yes, every slaughterhouse that sedates chickens with electroshocks ends up scolding quite a few of them alive. The alternative is of course to choke them with CO2, sounds like fun.

Not that I care, I bought enough chicken products yesterday to last till the end of the month. It's food, not humans.

My point still stands though. If a few chickens are still alive it is because of a mechanical or design problem, not an issue stemming from malicious intent.

It's like criticizing the justice system because a few guilty people got away and few innocent got locked up. There won't be any justice system that won't have that happen just as there won't be an automated slaughterhouse that will perfectly sedate every chicken.

So again the difference is, we attempt at making death as peaceful as possible for the animals out of respect while the other way has religious words whispered into the frighten pigs ear right before it feels its throat slit. The emphasis on the latter is not on the animal but the religious undertones while the focus on the western style is all about the animal. This is the crux of the matter here and I don't see what you are trying to say. Are all methods equal to you?

[a completely inoffensive name]

Perhaps in the Neds... it's an absolute disgrace for the USA and it's mostly because people are hopelessly addicted to processed meat, say the words "Cut back a bit if you can't afford good quality" doesn't ring with many people here... so bad quality has absorbed the market, and nobody cares because of government subsidies that have choked the profitability out of sustainable and dare-I-say humane ranching/farming methods.

People are not addicted to processed meat, they are addicted to cheap meat. Big difference. I once had a fresh, natural ranched steak and my taste buds were never happier, but I still enjoy Wendy's when I am hungry just because I am happy to get so much food for so little.

[Viking]

But perhaps we should take care of the worst cruelty first, then worry about the less cruel stuff afterwards? Remove the log before the splinter, as some might say....

As long as fur farms are still around, animal welfare is a joke. Same goes for the outrageous long distances animals are transported in Europe.

I think the animals that are forced to bleed to death would like to differ. There are surely graver things going on, but one can focus on one topic at a time.

[Fragony]

People are not addicted to processed meat, they are addicted to cheap meat. Big difference. I once had a fresh, natural ranched steak and my taste buds were never happier, but I still enjoy Wendy's when I am hungry just because I am happy to get so much food for so little.

OT we have the best thing evar here, a culinary take-away. Yesterday I had one with belgian-mayonnaise, truffle flakes and parmasan cheese & roasted lemon skin. Tasty indeed.

[HoreTore]

I think the animals that are forced to bleed to death would like to differ. There are surely graver things going on, but one can focus on one topic at a time.

I think the animals biting themselves to death due to insane stress levels on fur farms would like to differ.

As would the animals who die a slow, painful death while transported to slaughter.

[HoreTore]

My point still stands though. If a few chickens are still alive it is because of a mechanical or design problem, not an issue stemming from malicious intent.

It's like criticizing the justice system because a few guilty people got away and few innocent got locked up. There won't be any justice system that won't have that happen just as there won't be an automated slaughterhouse that will perfectly sedate every chicken.

So again the difference is, we attempt at making death as peaceful as possible for the animals out of respect while the other way has religious words whispered into the frighten pigs ear right before it feels its throat slit. The emphasis on the latter is not on the animal but the religious undertones while the focus on the western style is all about the animal. This is the crux of the matter here and I don't see what you are trying to say. Are all methods equal to you?

Define "malicious intent".

The people doing it are fully aware that what they're doing results in chickens being fried alive. It's not a freak occurrence, it's the result of their actions. And they don't give a crap about that and proceed with business as usual.

If kosher slaughter is "malicious intent", how is this not the same?

[Fragony]

Define "malicious intent".

The people doing it are fully aware that what they're doing results in chickens being fried alive. It's not a freak occurrence, it's the result of their actions. And they don't give a crap about that and proceed with business as usual.

If kosher slaughter is "malicious intent", how is this not the same?

They aren't fried alive they get hauled through an electrified water pool to knock them out. Have you actually seen a slaughterhouse from the inside.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Define "malicious intent".

The people doing it are fully aware that what they're doing results in chickens being fried alive. It's not a freak occurrence, it's the result of their actions. And they don't give a crap about that and proceed with business as usual.

If kosher slaughter is "malicious intent", how is this not the same?

Malicious intent the way I am using it means that the culture/society in which the food is being prepared has blatant disregard for any respect towards the animals they will be eating because they have their own traditions that they feel trump any sort of acquiescence to animals they are slaughtering. Does that really apply to western factories? No, not really unless you stretch the truth a lot.

It is a freak occurrence when it only happens to 1 out of every 100 or 1000 chickens. You just said it happens to quite a few of them. Unless I am misunderstanding the term quite a few doesn't mean majority or even close to it. What you are describing isn't what the method is supposed to be. The method is supposed to be to sedate them so they don't feel pain when they are killed. That shows that the culture respects the animal even when it is implemented badly. Purposely slicing it when it is still awake and not caring just because it is religious tradition and "god wants it that way" is malicious to the animal because they are purposely refusing to respect the animal.

Also, workers at the factory who don't care != society. The religious communities want to adhere to kosher rules and don't care about the animal or how much it feels pain. Western factories have government mandated and culturally acceptable ways of attempting to lessen or negate the pain for the animal. Just because the process might actually suck and actually does hurt a lot of the animals and just because the workers themselves might not care because they are desensitized from working there doesn't mean that suddenly both groups are on equal footing. One group is taking measures, the other group isn't.

[HoreTore]

They aren't fried alive they get hauled through an electrified water pool to knock them out. Have you actually seen a slaughterhouse from the inside.

Yes, and that sedation works when the chicken is of normal height and doesn't wiggle. If it's small or wiggles, they often miss it, and they also miss the blade from time to time. No miss on the scolding though.

[Fragony]

Yes, and that sedation works when the chicken is of normal height and doesn't wiggle. If it's small or wiggles, they often miss it, and they also miss the blade from time to time. No miss on the scolding though.

They are completely underwater no matter their size, feathers come of better when they are wet.

[Slyspy]

I think the animals biting themselves to death due to insane stress levels on fur farms would like to differ.

As would the animals who die a slow, painful death while transported to slaughter.

You keep bringing up fur farms when it has little or no relevance. Neither does transportation, which is required even if the meat is to be halal or kosher.

[Viking]

I think the animals biting themselves to death due to insane stress levels on fur farms would like to differ.

As would the animals who die a slow, painful death while transported to slaughter.

That is still not to say that the lesser sufferings should not be stopped.. They do not have to come at the expense of each other.

As for the 'terrible' transportation, I wonder if you have som links to come up with - it rings no bells here.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Hore - what you ought to do, is to show that despite the existence of all sorts of animal abuse, ritual slaughter is singled out.

This would then show that this is about Dutch anti-Islamic sentiment, instead of about animal rights concerns. Kosher simply being thron into the mix to avoid allegations of racism, and because the Jewish and Islamic traditions happen to be not dissimilar in this area.

Fur farms, animal transports, poor conditions of raising livestock - either these are all tackled, or this is about Islam.



Well bless the internets!:

Dutch raise animal rights to new level

It has been a busy few weeks for Marianne Thieme. Ten days ago, she made history as one of two animal-rights candidates to win election to the Dutch parliament.
They are the first animal-rights MPs anywhere in the world.

This 'Animal Rights Party' is the origin of the possible ban on ritual slaughter:

Amsterdam - A leading Dutch animal rights politician Thursday demanded that an end to be put to ritual slaughters of animals in The Netherlands, while cautioning that this stance is not meant as criticism of the Muslim and Jewish faiths.
http://www.monstersandcritics.com/ne...ual_slaughters

The populist right too is about animal rights. Free from the ancient alliances with agricultural interests and local rural entanglements of the old right, the Fragony's of this world can finally impose a long-standing electoral majority in favour of more animal rights:

If it sounds like an idea inspired by the Animal Planet show "Animal Cops," it's because it was. There will soon be 500 police officers on the streets of Holland protecting the welfare of the country's animals. The proposal originated with a uniquely powerful animal rights political party -- and brought to fruition by Geert Wilders' anti-Islam Party for Freedom.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/...747345,00.html

Common cause between new political parties then, who force the entire political structure towards their goals. It shows what society can do in a short time when freed of the constraints of old polical entanglements in general, and old multicultural reflexes in this particular case.

[Fragony]

I may have to kill him one day

[Samurai Waki]

People are not addicted to processed meat, they are addicted to cheap meat. Big difference. I once had a fresh, natural ranched steak and my taste buds were never happier, but I still enjoy Wendy's when I am hungry just because I am happy to get so much food for so little.

Uhhh.... if the meat contains a large quantity of Sodium Nitrite it's been processed. That's everything from Hamburger and Steaks you buy at the Grocery Store to McDonald's Meat Slurries.

[HoreTore]

Kosher simply being thron into the mix to avoid allegations of racism

Oh come one Louis, you know the history here as well as anyone. It's not kosher that's thrown in to justify a halal-ban, it's halal that's thrown in to justify a kosher ban. The anti-kosher sentiment is as old as european jew-hate, but because of WW2 a ban on kosher alone has as much chance as a snowball in hell(fortunately).

The fact of the matter is that fur farms remains as institutional torture of animals, yet "conservative free market animal rights activists"(yeah right) whines about kosher and halal. I'll say it again, a halal slaughtered cow in Muslimistan has lived a life in paradise compared to a "humanly slaughtered" cow in the west's industrial agriculture scheme.

True animal rights activists are of course against halal and kosher slaughter as well, but they're caught in the middle in this case, as they're against just about everything concerning animals... And let's have a closer look at those activists, shall we? They have devoted their life to fight for animals, I'd say they're pretty knowledgeable about what practices are the worst. It's also quite logical that they would be most strongly opposed to the worst practices, and will resort to drastic actions against them. Off the top of my head, I can remember plenty of actions against fur shops, fur farms, whaling and industrial farms. I can't seem to remember any actions committed against a kosher/halal slaughterhouse. And don't try the "oh they're scared to be labeled racists"-defense, I'm pretty sure loony activists don't give a crap about that.

As for the 'terrible' transportation, I wonder if you have som links to come up with - it rings no bells here.

I only have 2,5 years of near-constant bitching and whining about it from my farmer ex-girlfriend, no linkys... But if you want to find some yourself, Spain would probably be the best place to start, most of her bitching was about them....

[Louis VI the Fat]

Oh come one Louis, you know the history here as well as anyone. It's not kosher that's thrown in to justify a halal-ban, it's halal that's thrown in to justify a kosher ban. The anti-kosher sentiment is as old as european jew-hate, but because of WW2 a ban on kosher alone has as much chance as a snowball in hell(fortunately).

Oh, come on now, HoreTore. Anti-Islamism is the current focus of the European hardright, not antisemitism. Apart from some fringe groups, it's all about Muslims Muslims Muslims nowadays. Do you not read the interweb's underbelly, such as cult war games fora? Kosher slaughter is the collateral damage here.


Although, as I tried to show in my previous post, this is really about neither halal nor kosher food. This is about finding an electoral majority to impose stricter animal rights, including humane slaughter.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Uhhh.... if the meat contains a large quantity of Sodium Nitrite it's been processed. That's everything from Hamburger and Steaks you buy at the Grocery Store to McDonald's Meat Slurries.

EDIT: Forget what I said earlier, let me be more clear.

I understand that almost all the meat you can buy contains some sort of chemical treatment or processing but that doesn't mean that people are addicted to it. The chemicals that are put in there help the meat last longer, helps it ship long distances and is what makes the meat cheap in the first place. All cheap meat will have these processing methods on them because that is how you get cheap meat.

However, you can give a natural, grass fed (idk what they eat actually) steer, T-bone steak that is 100% natural, no processing and people will enjoy much more than the processed food. The problem is that it is more expensive and people enjoy having more money in their pocket when they eat then having the superior taste. It's not an issue of being addicted to the chemicals they put in, its an issue of wanting to keep as much money as possible, which is how most people are in every financial situation/transaction.

[HoreTore]

Although, as I tried to show in my previous post, this is really about neither halal nor kosher food. This is about finding an electoral majority to impose stricter animal rights, including humane slaughter.

I don't trust the sincerity of anyone who calls themselves an animal rights activist who has time for other things than firebombing fur shops.

[Samurai Waki]

EDIT: Forget what I said earlier, let me be more clear.

I understand that almost all the meat you can buy contains some sort of chemical treatment or processing but that doesn't mean that people are addicted to it. The chemicals that are put in there help the meat last longer, helps it ship long distances and is what makes the meat cheap in the first place. All cheap meat will have these processing methods on them because that is how you get cheap meat.

However, you can give a natural, grass fed (idk what they eat actually) steer, T-bone steak that is 100% natural, no processing and people will enjoy much more than the processed food. The problem is that it is more expensive and people enjoy having more money in their pocket when they eat then having the superior taste. It's not an issue of being addicted to the chemicals they put in, its an issue of wanting to keep as much money as possible, which is how most people are in every financial situation/transaction.

And yet meat products are more expensive than they've ever been... funny that, huh? Drive all the lifelong Ranchers out of business and then jack up the prices... while processing plants of today are more reminiscent of Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle" than they were fifteen or twenty years ago. It seems like the consumer is really getting screwed if it's all about prices.

[Kralizec]

It's not kosher that's thrown in to justify a halal-ban, it's halal that's thrown in to justify a kosher ban.

So about this law: the arguments about animal welfare are just a pretext for implementing islamophobic policy, to serve as a smoke screen for a massive anti-semetic conspiracy?

This makes perfect sense.

[a completely inoffensive name]

And yet meat products are more expensive than they've ever been... funny that, huh? Drive all the lifelong Ranchers out of business and then jack up the prices... while processing plants of today are more reminiscent of Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle" than they were fifteen or twenty years ago. It seems like the consumer is really getting screwed if it's all about prices.

Yes, what you have said is all correct. How does this negate my point?

[Samurai Waki]

Was I supposed to?