Possible ban on halal/kosher meat in the Neds

[HoreTore]

Modern methods of slalso why aughter are compassionate....? Modern slaughter is respectful treatment...? Now I've heard everything.

Yes, we respect our animals soooooo much, that's why we torture them by driving them across the country in a hot trailer! It's also why we scold chickens alive! Hooray! /sarcasm

And I haven't even mentioned the fur industry yet. But I'm late for skewl, so I'll keep this short: most people look down upon what they call "medieval slaughter". I'd say we should look towards the medieval period when it comes to animal welfare. That should be our benchmark. We need regulation of slaughter, but that's not because we were cruel in the middle ages, but because the industrial revolution has enabled almost unlimited cruelty. That is what we should aim to curb, not how things have been done for millennia. I believe hunting is perfectly fine. As hunting is perfectly fine, I don't see why other slaughter should be done in a more restricted way.



If people actually cared about animal welfare, they'd get rid of fur farms and unnecessarily long transportation ages before they even started to think about kosher. Unless they hate the joooooos, that is.

[Fragony]

Do not forget that we also hate teh muslims. Slaughter animals that are to be slaughtered kosher/halal are transported the same way, moot point. We don't have long distances here by the way 2 hours max.

@Hax, with an able butcher the animal is almost instantly braindead, and I doubt they feel the cutting.

[HoreTore]

Do not forget that we also hate teh muslims. Slaughter animals that are to be slaughtered kosher/halal are transported the same way, moot point. We don't have long distances here by the way 2 hours max.

@Hax, with an able butcher the animal is almost instantly braindead, and I doubt they feel the cutting.

The point you missed, Frags, was that there are countless issues animal rights people object to when it comes to slaughtering animals, and I have mentioned a few of them.

However, the only issue that can get banned, is kosher slaughter. I find it incredibly hard to explain that with a reason other than hatred of the jews or racism in general. If people actually cared about the animals, there are plenty of issues they would address long before they got to kosher, like transportation and fur farms.

[Kralizec]

The discussion is about the slaughter itself, not the way animals are treated before that. And unless muslims and jews breed their own lifestock for slaughter (do they?), the point is moot anyway.

Unsedated slaughter already was illegal, but till now there have been exemptions for religious rites. Personally I'm leaning towards keeping them.

Banning the practice and yet allowing imports would be hypocritical, IMO.

[Fragony]

The point you missed, Frags, was that there are countless issues animal rights people object to when it comes to slaughtering animals, and I have mentioned a few of them.

However, the only issue that can get banned, is kosher slaughter. I find it incredibly hard to explain that with a reason other than hatred of the jews or racism in general. If people actually cared about the animals, there are plenty of issues they would address long before they got to kosher, like transportation and fur farms.

It's normal that leftists know what you are really thinking and won't accept any explanation other than racism. Rather tiring.

@Krazilec I disagree, allowing it because some like howling to the moon or whatever it is they do is hypocritical. If other countries allow it what's it to us, they are free to leave or get it from there

[Slyspy]

On the face of it allowing exemptions for religious reasons is absurd.

[HoreTore]

It's normal that leftists know what you are really thinking and won't accept any explanation other than racism. Rather tiring.

@Krazilec I disagree, allowing it because some like howling to the moon or whatever it is they do is hypocritical. If other countries allow it what's it to us, they are free to leave or get it from there

Please, if you have another explanation, do explain why kosher meat should be banned and fur farms(or one of the other practices animal rights activists object to) should continue.

[Subotan]

It's normal that leftists know what you are really thinking and won't accept any explanation other than racism. Rather tiring.

...

In all seriousness though, this is the kind of thing which the secular government will put its foot down on in the name of a humane, tolerant society (Tolerant to animals, that is), backwards-looking people will whine and complain about it, before forgetting all about within five years time. Sacrificing a pig in the Temple, this is not.

;_;

[Kralizec]

Actually, the Dutch parliament is cracking down on the mink fur industry as well.

Norway has already banned ritual slaughter. Going by what you've said in this thread, I take it your government is racist?

[Fragony]

Please, if you have another explanation, do explain why kosher meat should be banned and fur farms(or one of the other practices animal rights activists object to) should continue.

Been said already, compassion > tradition

[rajpoot]

I seem to remember that there was another such thread, about the way animals are killed or something, quite a while back. It was in Frontroom though, if I remember correctly.

I'd made a post there, and I hadn't been able to get my point across very well. Let's see if I succeed now.

Edit: I reread what I wrote and it actually does not make sense.
To make a long story short, killing is killing. It is inhuman. It is not our right to judge whether the method in which we kill is more humane than the method someone else uses, because I'm sure that if the animal had any say in the thing, it would have probably said that it shouldn't be killed at all.

[HoreTore]

Actually, the Dutch parliament is cracking down on the mink fur industry as well.

Good. Way overdue.

Norway has already banned ritual slaughter. Going by what you've said in this thread, I take it your government is racist?

The law is from 1929. I think it's safe to assume racism here.

Been said already, compassion > tradition

That does nothing to explain your lack of compassion to the mistreatment in fur farms.

[Fragony]

That does nothing to explain your lack of compassion to the mistreatment in fur farms.

I haven't made any statements about fur farms, but if you are interested I'm against it unless it are jewish minks

[HoreTore]

I haven't made any statements about fur farms

....and that's kinda the point, isn't it?

[Fragony]

....and that's kinda the point, isn't it?

well no

[Cute Wolf]

man, I'm gonna buy a monkey and slice it's head alive so I can eat it's brain to commemorate this.... (monkey brain soup traditionally taken while the monkey is alive, then dunked quickly into hot boiling broth and tofu, and I hold traditons, it's proud Indonesian delicacy, and it was halal*)

....

You must know that the "kosher/halal" methods of animal slaughter are much more "humane" than other methods, and you shouldn't bought fish then, because fish was frozen alive... without sedations...

*. According to muslims who also drunk beers

[Hax]

You must know that the "kosher/halal" methods of animal slaughter are much more "humane" than other methods,

Not necessarily. There is no real scientific consensus about it.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Not necessarily. There is no real scientific consensus about it.

Meh. I wonder how much lack of scientific consensus there is if one disregards religiously inspired or funded scientists who claim that an animal shot through the brain suffers as much as an animal which slowly bleeds to death.

Religion can never win from science on science's own turf. Not regarding evolution, or criticism of the laws of physics, or wild claims about the scientific value of the Bible or Koran, or 'first cause' God evidences. It is all a death end. Religion will always lose out. It merely serves as a means for the religious to cover their ears and eyes for what they would otherwise see is true.

Better, I think, is to argue that the religious slaughter tradition acknlowedges that one is dealing with a live being. That man and animal are kept in touch, look each other in the eye as it were. Whereas it is the scientific tradition which has invented industrial biology. Which has moved animals away from people, has given secular industrial society the means to cover its eyes and ears for the plight of sentient beings.
It is not a pretty sight, to kill an animal, to hang it upside down, skin it, cut out the intestines. It is far removed from the 'fun food' you see on your plate. A distance which has allowed the industry to commit all sorts of sins with both the well-being of the animal and the health of the human consumer.

[Hax]

I am in complete agreeance, but still, I don't think we should deny any form of science pursued by religious people out of hand.

Better, I think, is to argue that the religious slaughter tradition acknlowedges that one is dealing with a live being. That man and animal are kept in touch, look each other in the eye as it were. Whereas it is the scientific tradition which has invented industrial biology. Which has moved animals away from people, has given secular industrial society the means to cover its eyes and ears for the plight of sentient beings.
It is not a pretty sight, to kill an animal, to hang it upside down, skin it, cut out the intestines. It is far removed from the 'fun food' you see on your plate. A distance which has allowed the industry to commit all sorts of sins with both the well-being of the animal and the health of the human consumer.

Exactly this. Couldn't have worded it better myself. In which you have also outlined the reason why I've abstained from eating meat for six years.

[Beirut]

This is absurd, they're just animals, . . .

That is no excuse to be cruel to them. Indeed we often measure our humanity by how we treat animals.

It's not such a bad standard to apply.

[Skullheadhq]

man, I'm gonna buy a monkey and slice it's head alive so I can eat it's brain to commemorate this....

mmmm.... delicious.....
I want some!

[Cute Wolf]

mmmm.... delicious.....
I want some!

100% Animal Cruelty
only in South East Asia

(no, I'm not bought any monkey yet, actually I ate steamed potato for breakfast today)

well, somebody else's delicacy could be cruelty for some... it's unfortunate indeed... but if we use the same judgements, Indians could protest Europeans that ate cows, because they are sacred and shouldn't be eaten.

[a completely inoffensive name]

As long as the sale of halal/kosher meat is not banned, I don't see what the problem is. If the regulations state that halal/kosher meat is treated in a way that violates the rules which state that the duty of the government is to make sure food is safe and humanely prepared, then the regulations should stand.

If their way of life is not threatened, then there is no violation of religion here in my book. If all the halal/kosher meat simply switches from "Made in the Netherlands" to "Made in x country." What is the problem?

EDIT: To make my point more clear, what I saying is: if they can still buy it, then I don't see what the problem is.

[HoreTore]

The bigest problem with this is that it glorifies our industrial agriculture, ACIN, as people start believing the lie that our treatment of animals is somehow "humane".

Which is nonsense. We optimize for profit, not animal welfare.

I'm okay with that, however, which is why I also have no problem with kosher.

[a completely inoffensive name]

The bigest problem with this is that it glorifies our industrial agriculture, ACIN, as people start believing the lie that our treatment of animals is somehow "humane".

Which is nonsense. We optimize for profit, not animal welfare.

I'm okay with that, however, which is why I also have no problem with kosher.

There is no humane way of killing something. There are more humane ways of killing than others though. Obviously we can agree there is a difference between smashing the head with a rock repeatedly until it dies and giving it a quick electric zap to the head.

[Samurai Waki]

Unless you're the one killing the animal, and butchering the meat I hardly see a reason to complain. The bigger issues are the industrial sized ranches churning out pathetic quality meat by animals that are treated horribly in their time of living. Happy cows are tasty cows.

[HoreTore]

There is no humane way of killing something. There are more humane ways of killing than others though. Obviously we can agree there is a difference between smashing the head with a rock repeatedly until it dies and giving it a quick electric zap to the head.

What's the difference between cutting it and letting it bleed to death(the kosher way) and scolding it alive(our way)?

[gaelic cowboy]

Bah two pages of an absolute rubbish "Oh no halal/kosher meat could be banned" boo hoo if they were all hungry enough they wouldnt give a toss where the meat came from.

[Incongruous]

That is no excuse to be cruel to them. Indeed we often measure our humanity by how we treat animals.

It's not such a bad standard to apply.

...
We breed them to be slaughtered and eaten, slitting their throats is hardly crueler than that.

[a completely inoffensive name]

What's the difference between cutting it and letting it bleed to death(the kosher way) and scolding it alive(our way)?

False dichotomy. It is not given that "our way" is scolding it alive. Do you somehow know that every slaughterhouse in Europe and North America scolds them alive?

The difference is in intent and in the pain factor. If you deny that a bullet to the head is quicker and less painful then having your head bashed in with a rock, then you have lost at living in reality.

An electrical zap that knocks the animal unconscious and disrupts breathing is quick, painless and they don't suffer as much as slicing their throats open as they hang from a cable wide awake.

It is also less malicious in intent. Killing animals to eat is not an "inhumane" action. It is nature and does not subscribe or allow itself to be applied with human concepts of humane or inhumane. Cats are not "inhumane" creatures for capturing and killing mice to eat. The act of killing the animal itself is always inhumane though and should be recognized as regrettable because we have the ability to actually think about our actions. There is a lot of nuance here that you and many others in this thread entirely skip over in order to make your general point.

We are not monsters because we eat other animals, but we can be monsters due to how we go about it. Bleeding a pig out while it hangs upside down is backwards and is obviously more pain and suffering for the animal then a usual factory farm that kills them in a quicker, more efficient pattern.

This detracts from the point I made in the first place though, which is that if this kosher way is less sanitary or healthy then normal western preparation, then the ban is fine as long as it doesn't ban the product outright.