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Thread: Future of the Nation State

  1. #1
    Member Centurion1's Avatar
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    Default Future of the Nation State

    So i just finished a 7 page paper in two hours (= poorly written atm haha) about Ernst Renan's What is a Nation and then into a minor detour into nationalism and its effects. I found it to be very interesting and thought it would make a rather decent topic in the backroom.

    Do you learned men agree with Renan's assessment of the Nation state and what do you all believe to be the future of the nation state.

    Maybe after I properly edit my essay I'll even post it here for a thrashing.

  2. #2
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the Nation State

    meh a typically French belief
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

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    Ni dieu ni maître! Senior Member a completely inoffensive name's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the Nation State

    Never read it, so I can't say.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

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    Member Centurion1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the Nation State

    http://www.cooper.edu/humanities/cla...3/e_renan.html

    This is what a google search yielded. pretty easy to read.

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    Ni dieu ni maître! Senior Member a completely inoffensive name's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the Nation State

    Quote Originally Posted by Centurion1 View Post
    http://www.cooper.edu/humanities/cla...3/e_renan.html

    This is what a google search yielded. pretty easy to read.
    Pssssh. I got a project due Thursday. Give me a couple days for that.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the Nation State

    Man is a slave neither of his race nor his language, nor of his religion, nor of the course of rivers nor of the direction taken by mountain chains. A large aggregate of men, healthy in mind and warm of heart, creates the kind of moral conscience which we call a nation
    This is the base for every single post by Louis

    Of course I would be remiss if I didn't acknowledge my own tendency to induledge myself in the same boyish notion that patriotism can be a temperd virture. The more you read and the more you see the less clear this notion becomes....It would all be eaiser if their was still a war to be fought, evil to be vanquished.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  7. #7
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the Nation State

    Sorry for the double post but I must expand on thought

    As one becomes more aware of his surroundings one is most certainly forced to acknowledge the fact that his nation was wrong, is wrong, and will be wrong again. Now for most of us here that point has been widely digested, so there is no need to expand on it further

    So the next line of defense for a man is to proclaim that his nation is more enlightened than others and the groveling souls they have wronged are to be happy it isn't the bully proper from down the road. The textbook example of this is China-USA.

    I have no qualms with the US installing dictators, overthrowing governments, and violating sovereignty. Even if to only further our own self interest and comfort. Now the boy inside of my whom grew up with such romantic notions inside of him, dreaming about 1776, 1789 as two mystical years in which the wrongs began to be righted may die a little on the inside. But let's be honest, 1776 and 1789 were bloody sordid affairs, nothing of fairy tale legend.

    I have no qualms not because I enjoy the displacement and murdering of peoples, nasty business that. Instead I have no qualms because at the end of the day some men only understand force and there is no reaching out to them.

    Patriotism can be boiled down to basic selfishness. Proclaiming the virtues of your country of the vices of another to further some larger geo-political goal and this is of course Renans biggest bugaboo. He saw the ugly jingoism that was rearing its ugly head in 19th century Europe, forged in the crude flames of race and religion and sought for a plane of patriots who could rise above such old and petty Human institutions.

    He unfortunately vastly underestimated humanities ability to de-humanize, so in the end the French model of fraternity is really only lipstick on a German pig
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Future of the Nation State

    Unfortunately, I fear more and more nations will band together in EU-type confederacies which will eventually yield one world government.

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the Nation State

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    Unfortunately, I fear more and more nations will band together in EU-type confederacies which will eventually yield one world government.
    Ya. A political union will be built on the ashes of our economies after international socialism has sucked us dry

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the Nation State

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Ya. A political union will be built on the ashes of our economies after international socialism has sucked us dry
    I think that Greece is ensuring that political union is a long way off.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the Nation State

    I agree with everything Strike says.

    Edit: upon actual reading of his posts, I now vehemently disagree.
    Gah! If only Meneldil were still here - he's the Renan expert.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Ya. A political union will be built on the ashes of our economies after international socialism has sucked us dry
    Sigh.

    Europe was the product of centre-right Catholic politicians, who gathered in Rome to seek to preserve European traditions from big modernist experiments. To protect against socialism, within and without.

    The international socialist experiment, that was the other Europe. Which, incidentally, also was eventually brought down by yet another few Catholics in Rome, centred around blessed John Paul.
    Last edited by Louis VI the Fat; 05-17-2011 at 16:27.
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  12. #12
    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the Nation State

    The Jewish finance-capitalists international centre-right and Judeo-Bolshevism international socialism are both abberations that suppress the nation - the natural level of political, cultural, and economic life.

    I have to disagree with the civic nationalists a la Renan. Culture is not in itself what binds people together as a nation, it is an expression of something much deeper. It is based on a connection and a birthright established by blood through countless generations. It forges a collective spirit, and as such produces the conditions for people to bind themselves under a government for their common good.

    Even the liberals here in effect concede this, otherwise they would want to abolish national parliaments in favour for a world government. The fact is a national interest does exist, and unlike fleeting conflicts based on class and such things that change with socioeconomic bla bla conditions, it always will exist. It is the entire basis of political life.

    The twentieth centry was somewhat of an abberation in that class conflict temporarily transcended national interests. But that is less the case nowadays, and I think this is reflected in the rise of the 'New Right' across Europe.

    This is why a British person asks why they should be governed by Brussels, but thinks nothing of it to be governed by London, even if he lives up in Newcastle or Inverness. Sometimes you've got to think about these seemingly obvious things when you take them for granted - get back to the basics.

    The nation is relevant and it isn't going to disappear any time soon.
    At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.

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