Guns are too strong or not?

**Kocmoc** · 05-17-2011, 15:38

Alright, I saw some treads flying around lately, where people pointed out that guns are too strong, have not enough FF (which is wrong) or should get changed. Id like to know how you think about guns in general.

It would be great, if you could post, why you think whatever you think. Thanks in advance.

Here is a replay,
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/images/kocmoc/FF1.replay

which shows perfectly how "good" the Friendly Fire is. Its done with my 2 PC´s, so you can be sure, thats perfect! ;)
It will clearly show you, that the FF is higher than the casualties of the enemy unit.

I also want to point out the "gun punching" vid I made, which give you some impression how guns can work.

Koc

**Nowake** · 05-17-2011, 17:26

Hey,

From a new MP player's perspective, I must write that I do find them a bit off in terms of moral, so I went for
Yes. The Moral Shock is too much.
I get the number of kills as correct, but when they retreat behind their melee infantry and continue to give such a moral penalty, it is a bit meh. I believe the unit covering them and getting all the friendly fire should have an even higher penalty to moral to be honest.

Also, while the kill per Salvo is all right, perhaps their Reload time should be increased a bit more? They may seem slow to Reload now, but I think they were even slower in reality and certain special abilities really bring them a bit over the top (yes, I am aware the previous Inspire was even more ridiculous than Rapid Fire ever will).

**AMP** · 05-17-2011, 18:21

Hard to say really...

Most that complain about them go about fighting them all wrong or atleast in the games that I have played anyway. Also no one is posting replays against skilled players showing how they are OP or pointing out certain points in replays showing how they are OP. They just say this or that...

It would help determine how much of a morale penalty units should receive if it showed in stats the number of the units current morale, but it doesn't constantly update. I would say however it would make sense that a unit getting shot in the back by friendly fire should suffer a higher morale penalty than a unit getting shot in the front by enemy gun fire.

If you watch the tracers they aren't going through any friendly soldiers that I can see, that any soldier hit by a bullet dies.

The thing that may seem broken is how soldiers in a unit can target an enemy soldier behind the lines when it's vision to the enemy soldier is blocked, but I don't think the AI can read that and would probably be hard to code to read such a thing I don't know. If they could fix it so a soldier can't target an enemy soldier without vision that would make a world of difference or atleast be a big step in the right direction.

**Zarobien** · 05-17-2011, 18:58

Now I'm guilty of using 1-2 of these as a tide turner for win. Mostly by running them on the side or even to the backside of the enemy; then fire once for the moral shock. So I voted "Yes, the moral shock is too much." The kills they do seem to be inline for me.

**AMP** · 05-17-2011, 19:24

What's the morale shock -morale on units, do we have exact numbers? Aren't high tier units resistant to morale shocks anyway? If a gun shoots in the side or back of enemy they should get a nice minus on morale, that's how it was back in STW days and chain routs were easier back then and no one complained about it, only those new to the game.

**Swoosh So** · 05-17-2011, 20:31

My god now people are complaining units get morale shocks when shot in their backside :O

**UglyJun** · 05-18-2011, 13:02

Originally Posted by AMP

What's the morale shock -morale on units, do we have exact numbers? Aren't high tier units resistant to morale shocks anyway? If a gun shoots in the side or back of enemy they should get a nice minus on morale, that's how it was back in STW days and chain routs were easier back then and no one complained about it, only those new to the game.

well we had major problems with the chain rout in STW Amp :) but it was addressed and rebalanced !!! so far i must say from my limited mp experience that i don't see any unit that's OP :)

**Zarobien** · 05-23-2011, 11:38

Originally Posted by AMP

What's the morale shock -morale on units, do we have exact numbers? Aren't high tier units resistant to morale shocks anyway? If a gun shoots in the side or back of enemy they should get a nice minus on morale, that's how it was back in STW days and chain routs were easier back then and no one complained about it, only those new to the game.

Kantana Samurai atleast has the "resistant to morale shocks" trait. But I have charged them from front with yari samurai too and got trought (alltought eaten one volley). So I would say the shock is just a short time and it cant be more than -5. I would say even less than that but more than -2. I think my light cav ate 3 volleys; one direct and two sideways trought opponent archers. It was the 3rd that got it routing but the 2 other light cavs stayed there for for one more volley. I think they have base morale of 8. So one volley shock would be -3? (Hard to say because theres lots of stuff going on there.)