Results 1 to 14 of 14

Thread: The Project Gunrunner Scandal

  1. #1

    Default The Project Gunrunner Scandal

    Some of you may recall stories like this surfacing in the last couple of years about the 'huge' problem of American guns flowing into Mexico and fueling the drug violence south of the border.


    As an unprecedented number of American guns flows to the murderous drug cartels across the border, the identities of U.S. dealers that sell guns seized at Mexican crime scenes remain confidential under a law passed by Congress in 2003.

    "One of the reasons that Houston is the number one source, you can go to a different gun store for a month and never hit the same gun store," said J. Dewey Webb, special agent in charge of the Houston field division of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. "You can buy [a 9mm handgun] down along the border, but if you come to Houston, you can probably buy it cheaper because there's more dealers, there's more competition."

    Drug cartels have aggressively turned to the United States because Mexico severely restricts gun ownership. Following gunrunning paths that have been in place for 50 years, firearms cross the border and end up in the hands of criminals as well as ordinary citizens seeking protection.

    "This is not a new phenomenon," Webb said.

    What is different now, authorities say, is the number of high-powered rifles heading south - AR-15s, AK-47s, armor-piercing .50-caliber weapons - and the savagery of the violence.

    Federal authorities say more than 60,000 U.S. guns of all types have been recovered in Mexico in the past four years, helping fuel the violence that has contributed to 30,000 deaths. Mexican President Felipe Calderon came to Washington in May and urged Congress and President Obama to stop the flow of guns south.
    That supposed flow of guns was then used by the President and other administration officials to lie about America's role in the Mexican violence and the Justice Department to discredit gun shop owners and call for new gun control legislation.


    The Obama administration on Friday will seek another round of comments on its controversial proposal to require gun dealers in four states on the U.S.-Mexico border to report the sale of multiple rifles.

    In a bid to curb the flow of guns into Mexico, where drug cartels have waged deadly wars to protect their business, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has sought to tighten reporting requirements in Arizona, Texas, New Mexico and California.

    Under the proposal, dealers would have to report sales of two or more rifles to the same person at one time or during any five business days if the rifles are semi-automatic, with a caliber greater than .22 and detachable magazines.

    The proposal will be published in the government's Federal Register on Friday seeking comments for 30 days, according to a copy obtained by Reuters on Thursday.

    It was first published in December and had a 60-day comment period that garnered almost 13,000 responses. About 30 percent opposed the reporting requirement and 70 percent favored it, ATF said.

    The second round of comment is typical for new regulations, according to ATF, and no substantive changes were made. After reviewing the new comments submitted, the proposal could be implemented or altered.

    The proposed requirement has drawn intense criticism from the powerful gun lobby, the National Rifle Association, which has accused the Obama administration of using the violence in Mexico as a pretext to try to clamp down on gun sales.
    Gun rights groups cried foul, claiming that if existing laws and border security were properly enforced, such a flow would not exist; and that gun shop owners were following all legal requirements and working with the ATF to stop guns making it to Mexico.


    Well, as it turns out, President Obama was correct, there was a deadly flow of American guns into Mexico. The only problem? It was, in fact, his own Justice Department, through the ATF, facilitating the sales.


    Project Gunrunner" deployed new teams of agents to the southwest border. The idea: to stop the flow of weapons from the US to Mexico's drug cartels. But in practice, sources tell CBS News, ATF's actions had the opposite result: they allegedly facilitated the delivery of thousands of guns into criminal hands.


    CBS News wanted to ask ATF officials about the case, but they wouldn't agree to an interview. We were able to speak to six veteran ATF agents and executives involved. They don't want to be quoted by name for fear of retaliation. These are their allegations.


    In late 2009, ATF was alerted to suspicious buys at seven gun shops in the Phoenix area. Suspicious because the buyers paid cash, sometimes brought in paper bags. And they purchased classic "weapons of choice" used by Mexican drug traffickers - semi-automatic versions of military type rifles and pistols.


    Sources tell CBS News several gun shops wanted to stop the questionable sales, but ATF encouraged them to continue.


    Jaime Avila was one of the suspicious buyers. ATF put him in its suspect database in January of 2010. For the next year, ATF watched as Avila and other suspects bought huge quantities of weapons supposedly for "personal use." They included 575 AK-47 type semi-automatic rifles.


    ATF managers allegedly made a controversial decision: allow most of the weapons on the streets. The idea, they said, was to gather intelligence and see where the guns ended up. Insiders say it's a dangerous tactic called letting the guns, "walk."


    One agent called the strategy "insane." Another said: "We were fully aware the guns would probably be moved across the border to drug cartels where they could be used to kill."


    On the phone, one Project Gunrunner source (who didn't want to be identified) told us just how many guns flooded the black market under ATF's watchful eye. "The numbers are over 2,500 on that case by the way. That's how many guns were sold - including some 50-calibers they let walk."


    50-caliber weapons are fearsome. For months, ATF agents followed 50-caliber Barrett rifles and other guns believed headed for the Mexican border, but were ordered to let them go. One distraught agent was often overheard on ATF radios begging and pleading to be allowed to intercept transports. The answer: "Negative. Stand down."


    CBS News has been told at least 11 ATF agents and senior managers voiced fierce opposition to the strategy. "It got ugly..." said one. There was "screaming and yelling" says another. A third warned: "this is crazy, somebody is gonna to get killed."


    Sure enough, the weapons soon began surfacing at crime scenes in Mexico - dozens of them sources say - including shootouts with government officials.


    One agent argued with a superior asking, "are you prepared to go to the funeral of a federal officer killed with one of these guns?" Another said every time there was a shooting near the border, "we would all hold our breath hoping it wasn't one of 'our' guns."


    Then, Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry was murdered. The serial numbers on the two assault rifles found at the scene matched two rifles ATF watched Jaime Avila buy in Phoenix nearly a year before. Officials won't answer whether the bullet that killed Terry came from one of those rifles. But the nightmare had come true: "walked" guns turned up at a federal agent's murder.


    "You feel like s***. You feel for the parents," one ATF veteran told us.


    Hours after Agent Terry was gunned down, ATF finally arrested Avila. They've since indicted 34 suspected gunrunners in the same group. But the indictment makes no mention of Terry's murder, and no one is charged in his death.


    Kent Terry said of his brother, "He'd want them to tell the truth. That's one thing my brother didn't like was a liar. And that's what he'd want. He'd want the truth.


    In a letter, the Justice Department which oversees ATF says the agency has never knowingly allowed the sale of assault weapons to suspected gunrunners.

    And the demonized gun shop owners? Well, they tried to stop the process.


    Federal agents and prosecutors last year encouraged Arizona gun dealers to sell firearms to buyers for Mexican cartels even after the store owners fretted that weapons might be used to kill Border Patrol agents, according to e-mails obtained by Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa.

    Grassley, ranking member of the Senate Judiciary Committee, said in a letter to Attorney General Eric Holder that the e-mails refute earlier Justice Department denials. The e-mails were exchanged by a federal agent and an Arizona gun dealer last April and June.

    "In light of this new evidence, the Justice Department's claim that the ATF never knowingly sanctioned or allowed the sale of assault weapons to straw purchasers is simply not credible," Grassley wrote in the letter sent Wednesday.

    The letter and e-mails were made public Thursday.

    Justice Department officials in Washington, D.C., could not be reached late Thursday, and a spokesman for the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives declined to comment.

    The controversy stems from Operation Fast and Furious, an Arizona investigation in which agents monitored weapons and buyers after suspicious sales in an effort to track guns to cartel members.

    After U.S. Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry was killed in a December shootout near Nogales, Ariz., two AK-47s found at the scene were traced to Operation Fast and Furious. They had been purchased in Glendale 11 months earlier.

    Federal authorities previously denied that gun-store owners were encouraged to continue selling firearms to cartel operatives, some of whom visited shops repeatedly, purchasing dozens of assault rifles.

    The e-mails released by Grassley contradict those statements. In correspondence with an unidentified gun dealer last April, ATF Supervisor David Voth wrote:

    "I understand that the frequency with which some individuals under investigation by our office have been purchasing firearms from your business has caused concerns for you. . . . However, if it helps put you at ease, we are continually monitoring these suspects using a variety of investigative techniques which I cannot go into (in) detail."

    The firearms vendor responded by asking for a letter to ensure that he would not face repercussions for selling dozens of weapons to a suspected criminal: "I want to help ATF with its investigation, but not at the risk of agents' safety because I have some very close friends that are U.S. Border Patrol agents in southern Arizona."

    Terry was killed six months later in a firefight with suspected border bandits. No one has been charged in the slaying.
    Seriously, you can't make this stuff up folks.

    In summary, the President of the United States, the Attorney General, and the Secretary of State each lied on multiple occasions to inflate the 'crisis' of American guns flowing into Mexico. They then used that fabricated crisis to propose new gun control legislation. All the while, it was in fact the US government through the ATF that was the largest supplier of American guns to Mexico... guns that were responsible for the deaths of hundreds if not thousands of Mexicans and at least one American border patrol agent.


    When you give guns to the Mexican cartels, they use them to kill people. That is the finding of an investigation by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, which involved allowing thousands of guns collected through suspicious purchases to walk across the Mexican border. The guns were later used against U.S. Border Patrol agents. You can read more about the scandal from CBS News here.

    Ever since Border Patrol agent Brian Terry was killed in December, the "gunwalker" scandal has been slowly growing. Two guns recovered on the scene of the murder had been deliberately allowed by BATF to walk across the border. The Justice Department continues to evade responsibility for this investigation gone wrong, and Senate Democrats seem to have no interest in holding them accountable.
    House Oversight Chairman Darrell Issa, R-Calif., has been investigating, and receiving minimal cooperation from the administration. He released this statement upon the indictment of Terry's killer:

    “The announcement of an indictment against Manuel Osorio-Arellanes for the murder of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry is certainly good news, but leaves critical questions unanswered. The Justice Department still hasn’t said how and why guns purportedly being tracked and monitored by federal law enforcement officials as part of Operation Fast and Furious ended up in the hands of Agent Terry’s killers. It angers me to think that this death might not have occurred had it not been for reckless decisions made by officials at the Department of Justice who authorized and supported an operation that knowingly put guns in the hands of criminals. For these officials to imagine that this operation would result in anything other than a tragic outcome was naive and negligent. Sen. Charles Grassley and I continue to demand accountability as we investigate this matter.”

    This scandal is especially striking given all the complaining and the false numbers that President Obama released at the beginning of his administration over the number of U.S.-bought guns being used by cartels in Mexico.
    As of today, the administration is stonewalling congressional investigations of the scandal, while the Mexican government has been completely caught off guard.

    Nearly two weeks after extensive reports on the gun-walking scandal have come to light, no senior figure in Mexico's federal government has yet denounced the ATF's tactics (including Mexico's president, Felipe Calderón, who recently found no difficulty in expressing his anger at WikiLeaks revelations about US criticism of his "war on drugs"). While Mexico's bicameral commission on national security begins to speak with federal officials only this week, senior members of the Calderón government have yet to give a date for their appearances before congress. These include powerful Mexican politicos like the country's minister of the interior, Francisco Blake Mora, and the head of the country's national security council, Alejandro Poiré.

    Even as Mexico shakes its fist at the United States and demands detailed explanations, it seems that questions remain to be answered closer to home. Since the ATF's gun-walking operations began in 2008, thousands of firearms were permitted into the hands of Mexico's cartels (over 2,500 weapons in one operation alone). If Mexican authorities knew that the ATF was allowing weapons to "walk" – on a supposedly temporary basis – did they not inquire how many of these were being recovered? If Mexican counter-trafficking officials were being kept up-to-date on the ATF's gun-tracking operations, were they also aware that the ATF knew their weapons were being used in specific shootouts with Mexican and US officials (including the AK-47 that killed US border patrol agent Brian Terry, last December). Was this of concern to them? If ATF agents reported seeing a correlation between their activities and the growing violence in Mexico, how did Mexican security officials not?

    Since "Project Gunrunner" began in 2008, over 30,000 cartel-related deaths have been recorded in Mexico. Thus far, the only reported successes from these operations appear to be the arrest of 20 arms traffickers by the ATF this January. Given the immeasurable damage that these operations are likely to have caused, and the little information available on them so far, both governments still have a lot of explaining to do – and soon.
    Last edited by PanzerJaeger; 05-18-2011 at 08:40.

  2. #2
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Between Louis' sheets
    Posts
    10,369

    Default Re: The Project Gunrunner Scandal

    You didn't know about this? For shame.

    The way I understand it the ATF is trying to get to the bigger fish, pretty simple law enforcement strategy. Granted they can't say anything about it becuase people can't wrap their minds around complex concepts and it's easy thing to score political points on with the "independents"

    And LOL to anyone who thinks Mexico isn't right in the thick of things with us.

    LOL INDEED
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  3. #3

    Default Re: The Project Gunrunner Scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    You didn't know about this? For shame.
    Obviously I knew about it because I created a thread about it. I wanted to wait and ensure that all the facts were established before going to the trouble of making said thread.

    The way I understand it the ATF is trying to get to the bigger fish, pretty simple law enforcement strategy.
    LOL INDEED. The bigger fish is the ATF, and may in fact be senior level administration officials.
    Last edited by PanzerJaeger; 05-18-2011 at 08:00.

  4. #4

    Default Re: The Project Gunrunner Scandal

    If it has been going on since 2008, then this transcends politics and presidents and reveals an independent agency going rouge with its power.


  5. #5
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Between Louis' sheets
    Posts
    10,369

    Default Re: The Project Gunrunner Scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    Obviously I knew about it because I created a thread about it. I wanted to wait an ensure that all the facts were established before going to the trouble of making said thread.
    This is why your posts make sense and mine ramble.....I should take notes



    LOL INDEED. The bigger fish is the ATF, and may in fact be senior level administration officials.
    This is realpolitik at its finest. What the ATF is doing is SOP for every single major police dept. in the USA. This is not Iran-Contra. Now the dem political machine turning right around and using Mexico to push through its agenda is underhanded, but, that's politics.

    The people in Obamas administration aren't stupid, selling these guns is a solid tactic. It is the stupid positions on guns they take in the first place that is getting them into trouble, string them up by there balls I really don't care.

    independent agency going rouge with its power
    So that's what selling guns to drug dealers is now? lulzzzzzz
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  6. #6

    Default Re: The Project Gunrunner Scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    So that's what selling guns to drug dealers is now? lulzzzzzz
    Nah i was just messing around. I'm trying to come up with a good plot for my novel I want to write.


  7. #7
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Between Louis' sheets
    Posts
    10,369

    Default Re: The Project Gunrunner Scandal

    Vampires bro

    Vampires
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  8. #8

    Default Re: The Project Gunrunner Scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    If it has been going on since 2008, then this transcends politics and presidents and reveals an independent agency going rouge with its power.
    Actually, the 'gun walking' part of Project Gunrunner, which encompassed many other activities, was initiated by the Obama administration.

    AS CBS News reported Tuesday, the strategy of “letting guns walk” out of Southwest gun shops began in late 2009. The Bush administration left in January 2009. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives had been conducting “Gunrunner” activities on a limited basis prior to that, but the operation was dramatically expanded months after Obama administration officials, most notably Attorney General Eric Holder and Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton, had been discussing the number of U.S.-origin guns being recovered at Mexican narco-war crime scenes.

    ATF insiders being interviewed in Arizona are among those who told CBS News that their own agency employed a controversial strategy beginning in late 2009 called "letting guns walk," to try to gather intelligence.—CBS News

    There is a growing suspicion within the firearms community that ATF higher-ups wanted to flood Mexico with guns, just to boost their statistics on recovered guns, and thus justify demands for renewal and expansion of the ban on so-called “assault weapons.” Such a ban would also be permanent.

  9. #9
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Between Louis' sheets
    Posts
    10,369

    Default Re: The Project Gunrunner Scandal

    There is a growing suspicion within the firearms community that ATF higher-ups wanted to flood Mexico with guns, just to boost their statistics on recovered guns, and thus justify demands for renewal and expansion of the ban on so-called “assault weapons.” Such a ban would also be permanent.
    Well this is the rub....either a dept filled with cops is using a time honored cop tactic

    OR it's a conspiracy
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  10. #10

    Default Re: The Project Gunrunner Scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Well this is the rub....either a dept filled with cops is using a time honored cop tactic

    OR it's a conspiracy
    'Walking' illegal merchandise, such as stolen cars or smuggled prescription drugs from Canada, back to its buyers to catch them is a time honored cop tactic. 'Walking' AK47s to groups that will most certainly use them to kill people is not, and such a strategy was apparently not a part of the Gunrunner effort launched in 2005 until the Obama administration came into power.

    As for the conspiracy, at this point that is all it is. It is very interesting that no one in the ATF saw fit to institute this disastrous strategy for the first four years of the program, and only when the new president and his senior level officials began talking about the huge numbers of American guns flowing into Mexico was it decided to dump huge numbers of guns into the country. However, I'm not trying to push a conspiracy with this thread and would prefer the discussion remain fact based. Those facts are damaging enough.
    Last edited by PanzerJaeger; 05-18-2011 at 08:36.

  11. #11
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Between Louis' sheets
    Posts
    10,369

    Default Re: The Project Gunrunner Scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    'Walking' illegal merchandise, such as stolen cars or smuggled prescription drugs from Canada, back to its buyers to catch them is a time honored cop tactic. 'Walking' AK47s to groups that will most certainly use them to kill people is not, and such a strategy was apparently not a part of the Gunrunner effort launched in 2005 until the Obama administration came into power.
    Let the minows go to catch the trout

    Or would you rather drown the worms?
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  12. #12
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Taplow, UK
    Posts
    8,690
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: The Project Gunrunner Scandal

    Ah yes.

    We don't want the small fish, so we let them go to continue doing whatever they were doing. In this case facilitating murders. We try and get the big fish, which almost never happens as to get to the top they're not stupid and are very powerful - direct evidence is almost non-existent and they can bend the law to protect them if required.

    If, rarely, one is captured there is a bloodbath using the guns that the smaller fish brought in until someone else takes the top spot.

    Or, we could try and limit the weapons they have - but then how will we strive and fail to get those at the top? And it's hardly as glamorous showing how you're stopped something from happening rather than trumpeting that the latest slaughter shows how important you are.

    That this could be a method of finding a reason for banning assault rifles is to my mind insane. To me, it makes as much sense as giving fireworks to toddlers to prove they kill and maim so they can all be banned - create a problem that isn't there and then "fix" it.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  13. #13
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    15,617

    Default Re: The Project Gunrunner Scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    ... guns that were responsible for the deaths of hundreds if not thousands of Mexicans and at least one American border patrol agent.
    Nono, guns don't kill people, people kill people, you can't blame this on the guns or the ones selling them or allowing them to be sold, they're just tools for self defense and personal use, restricting those sales would be discrimination and against the Mexicans' second amendment rights! These people need a way to stop their federal government from doing what it wants, if Mexicans want to sell drugs to America and their governments wants to stop them and act against the will of the people, then they need to have the means to overthrow their government.


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

  14. #14
    Insomniac and tired of it Senior Member Slyspy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    England
    Posts
    1,868

    Default Re: The Project Gunrunner Scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Nono, guns don't kill people, people kill people, you can't blame this on the guns or the ones selling them or allowing them to be sold, they're just tools for self defense and personal use, restricting those sales would be discrimination and against the Mexicans' second amendment rights! These people need a way to stop their federal government from doing what it wants, if Mexicans want to sell drugs to America and their governments wants to stop them and act against the will of the people, then they need to have the means to overthrow their government.
    Well done Husar, that made me smile!
    "Put 'em in blue coats, put 'em in red coats, the bastards will run all the same!"

    "The English are a strange people....They came here in the morning, looked at the wall, walked over it, killed the garrison and returned to breakfast. What can withstand them?"

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO