Draft League Rules

[UglyJun]

sad that one has to explain what honor means :(

[RTKAbu]

Sad that you people dont understand my post and i even have to explain further...

Tincow, above all, i dont understand what i have to make out of this sentence, can you please explain,

I do not believe this is the League for you

If you mean i am not honorable, i find it insulting, especially because you dont know me, nor played with me, and last but not least, you insult not only me but indirectly my clan if you ment it that way. The fact that youre meaning of honour is not mine shows exactly the glitch in youre tourney system, you can judge what you want as admin and if you dont like something, you can punish what you want, in that way you arent a fair admin, but in a way a 'tourney dictator', something the CWC, had always trying to avoid as they make rules more clear and less interpretational.

Honor in all games are defined on rules, for example, in soccer when kicking and slapping wouldnt be punished by the rules, we would see a game of soccer which is more focussed on kickboxing and other things then the game itself. If it isnt standing in the rules to use a maximum of 11 men on the field, i am sure mourinho would use 60 players on the field instead of the 11, and i am also sure Barca woulnt have won the champions league. Question is, would you blame mourinho for using 60 men on the soccer field, or use kickboxers as players when it isnt in the rules?

Honor in games is defined by rules, this ladder lacks in that. You dont only lack to define the word honor with more explicit rules, but you also, from what i understand, accuse me from not having honor. Well, in the avatar pre-patch battles i found it dishonorable to use inspire and rapid fire on the same time to get a reload and accury rate over 100, still many of the players who posted here found it no problem to use, while we all know this was a glitch or a 'bug' in the system, i guess even you used this, are you now gonna ban all those people who did that, will you give yourself a perm. forum ban? In the pre-patch battles everyone used to upgrade their units with special clan abilitys on level 5 while we all knew it should only be possible at level 9, i got all the replays of people on this forum using this glitch, are they dishonorable in the way you accuse me to be dishonorable now aswell?

Why do you even state the glitch of the 'stand and fight', in youre definition people shoulnt use it anyway and people should understand youre definition of honor because you are an almighty x-man with mental gift to implement youre definition of honor in our brains. Do you really think honor was ever a part of battle in the past? I begin to think you dont only understand how to create a tourney with as less flaws as possible, but you also lack knowlegde of the world. Can you imagine a samurai would ever rethink to kill a man because his enemy probably got 2 little children, a wife, a family, and proably didnt even want to be there on that same moment but would want to harvest his crops and teach his sons writing and things about nature, honor my friend, is created by the victor to inspire, nothing more, if you ever saw familys murdered before youre eyes in the name of peace probably agreed upon by youre president, you would rethink youre statements Tincow.

Anyway, i hope you get my piont, and although i am not a big fan of CWC, they are always very clear on whats allowed and not, to make sure every part of possible admin/counsil abuse is almost non-existent, and if i am not mistaken, the link you gave me is the duplicate of that on the CWC. Honor in they way you mean it can be a goal, but can never be a force to achieve something, thats why even the poster of that link made very clear rules, what is allowed and not allowed, what is tolreable, and what is not, everything to try to come as close as the honor you describe, while knowing the sentence on itself isnt worth a nickle. I give you my advice Tincow, again, be clear on the rules, make be very explicit on what is and what isnt allowed, or dont create rules and dont mention punishing, nor give yourself the right to punish.

[00owl]

Something which you may not know Abu is that TinCow doesn't actually play online (much). In fact he only played his first online game maybe a week and a half ago with some of us from the chat lobby and we played classic battle to accommodate his lack of veterans and low level general. With that in mind then I doubt that he is guilty of the exploits and game abuse of which he stands accused.

Second, I think there was a misunderstanding around this quote:

I do not believe this is the League for you

I think that it seems that you were trying to describe some of the abuses that would take place and TinCow thought that you had meant you would be the one perpetrating them deliberately. Given that, then yes this league would not be for you if you want to do that.

Also, the inclusion of the one specific glitch/exploit (stand and fight abuse) was added late in the discussion and almost wasn't added in.

All of the above said, I do agree with you that honor is based on a code or set of rules. Honor is usually based on traditions and culture and the rules are unwritten, but everyone knows them. For example a thief's honour would be different from the honour of a priest's. Unfortunately for us the culture and traditions of the internet are based on deceit, dishonesty, e-peens, and immaturity. Which means that the honour of the internet is hardly what we could call honour at all. TinCow is attempting to define honour by the cultures and the values of this board which I think most of us can agree on, if not explicitly, then at least we can come to a vague understanding.

What you are calling for is an explicit definition of honour so that we can remove any subjectivity from the admin. This is a difficult task, but maybe one that should be done. However, I haven't read it but apparently the .org code of conduct probably is a good start. Personally for me I think the most important thing in honour in terms of playing games is to keep the main thing the main thing, and that is having fun. I usually find that people get dishonourable when they start playing only to win. That is a discussion that will take lots of input from every angle possible and still will never be complete.

There is another way to keep the admins more objective and that is to keep them out of the game AND also create a system where they are responsible for their decisions. One where admin decisions can be disputed and argued and voted on by the players in the league.

My thoughts anyways. They aren't entirely fleshed out, but it is a start on what I'm thinking.

[TinCow]

Abu, I apologize if I offended you as that was not my intent. I wrote that line as I interpreted your statement to be a direct refutation of the CoH, which is specifically listed as part of the rules. If I misunderstood your intent in writing that phrase, then please accept my apology. There are many different online competitions, and none of them will have rules that make everyone happy. That does not make any single competition better than others, or make any players wrong for choosing to participate or not participate in any specific one.

Perhaps honor is not the best word. I used it because of the TW Code of Honour, which is a very old and well-regarded set of standards for the TW MP community. The Org has always been particularly fond of them, and it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that any official Org-hosted MP competition would use them. However, it is just a title and you are correct that the word 'honor' in the title may be misapplied. Instead of honor, a better term would instead be sportsmanship. Sportsmanship is not defined by rules, but rather by the sentiments and intentions of those who compete. Outside the sporting world, it is also known as ethics. Rules and ethics do not go hand in hand. It is entirely possible to do something unethical which is still legal, and possible to commit an illegal act which is completely ethical. I hope you can understand that difference.

I also realize that some people may be uneasy at not knowing exactly how I and the other Gamemasters will judge specific behavior under certain circumstances. However, I want to assure you that we are not tyrants. The Org has long had a reputation for having mature and effective moderation, and we value objectivity and impartiality very highly. I promise you that no person would suffer any active repercussions (such as loss of a match) due to a single incident that was not specifically prohibited by the rules. In such a situation, that person would always be given a simple notice that what they were doing was not within the spirit of the League and no actions would be taken against them unless the behavior continued after the notice had been given. In addition, it is my intention to eventually recruit several more experienced MP Gamemasters, and the entire group of players would be consulted if any issue arose, and any actions taken would be made by a consensus of this group. As for the past behavior of players, I do not care at all how players play outside of the League. As long as they abide by the rules while they are playing League games, it should not make any difference how they play elsewhere. Thus, not only are players welcome in the League who have used game flaws before, they are even welcome to use those game flaws while they are active in the League... just not in League games themselves.

On a final note, I think you are going a bit far by comparing the proper behavior in an online computer game to proper behavior during war. The two scenarios are not even remotely similar. STW2 MP is held to the same standards as playing Monopoly with your parents, not the standards that you would use when defending your family from armed invaders.

[00owl]

On a side note, since I probably won't have the time/energy to participate in this league as a player but would still like to be involved I would like to volunteer as a GM if you would be willing to take an inexperienced one such as myself.

[Nigel]

Why do you even state the glitch of the 'stand and fight',

I should probably say that I am responsible for this one.

I had thought it would be helpful to add a spoiler box listing the most common known exploits, so that the worst cases would be take care of up-front and players dont even try to start a discussion about them. I know, of course, that such a List of Known Exploits can never be complete.

I still think this could be helpful. However if a situation occurs where someone says: "well, this trick may be cheesy, but it is not included in the List of Known Exploits and therefore I am all right to use it", then the list becomes counter-productive and should better be left out.

[TinCow]

I still think this could be helpful. However if a situation occurs where someone says: "well, this trick may be cheesy, but it is not included in the List of Known Exploits and therefore I am all right to use it", then the list becomes counter-productive and should better be left out.

Whether specific tactics/abilities/etc. are exploits will be decided by the Gamemasters as we become aware of them. I'm trying to assemble a good group of knowledgeable people to consult with and advise on these things. I've just added 00owl and Azuretotalwar as Gamemasters, and more will probably be added as the player base grows. Thus, decisions on this will be made by consensus of a group of experienced MP vets, they will not be subject exclusively to my whims.