Conversion to Christianity?

[Yesugey]

I converting my clan to Christianity only if they were really converted historically. And i disband all my Monks and Temples, then i build my army based on Muskets.

Specially on the fog, only 3 unit of Musketeers can hold an army of Samurai, It become like same at the "The Last Samurai" Movie ^^

[caravel]

Welcome Yesugey. I have moved this post from the 7 year old thread you originally posted it in.


On topic: I mostly convert my clan to christianity, regardless of which clan, as it makes for the most interesting campaigns.

[Wishazu]

Hi Yesugey.



As to converting, my favourite tactic is to wait untill the Dutch appear before making the decision. The Portuguese catholics really irritate me for some reason lol also, whilst trading with the dutch you don`t have to convert so can keep producing Warrior Monks too.

[caravel]

You should should really try converting immediately Wishazu-sama - even if for one campaign only. I was once of the same opinion as yourself, but once I realised the true power of our bloodsucking reptilian overlords potential of converting as soon as possible, building churches and training teppo, I was quite surprised to say the least.

[Yesugey]

Hey Asai, Wishazu.

And Thanks for moving the post.

In STW there are not much difference between the clans, so i prefer to put rules of myself. Thats why i do my converting just after Spanish arrives, not even wait for 1 turn. No matter how many Temples i have and how vulnerable i am against the rebellions at the moment.

[gollum]

IIRC in the Last Samurai the musket units did not hold any samurai in the fog - they were just wiped out.

[Togakure]

One great thing about converting early is early access to the morale penalty inflicted by firearms. In STW, morale matters, and even the lowly arquebus can be quite useful, particularly when coordinated with other morale attacks like flanking, cavalry charges, monk attacks, archery fire, assassination of a high-honor general on the field, etc.. The arq suffers in range and is more sensitive to moisture, but it's more powerful, and bottom line: still inflicts the morale penalty. If I go the Christian route, I'll usually have 1-2 units in an "ideal" 16-unit stack. If conditions permit, they can contribute much to routing the enemy and winning the battle.

Edit: on the subject of Warrior Monks, many times I have gone Christian in mid-game while controlling provinces with Buddhist Temples, producing monks, without incident. I just stationed a larger ashigaru and shinobi garrison in the province with the temple, and perhaps an extra ashi and/or spy in neighboring provinces that are known to be rebellious (those surrounding Kaga, Kii etc.). Best of both worlds.

[gollum]

The most chances of rebellion usually take place as population switches from one faith to the other. However, even when rebellions do happen, they are not as big as they could have been.

So, yes its quite a viable option actually to get away with both, although it would have been much better to be still viable but more unstable in practice.

[Pikenier]

When exactly does a faction convert to Christianity? As soon as you accept the Portuguese offer in the Throneroom or when you build your first church?

The reason I´m asking is that in my current Shimazu campaign (my first STW campaign :)) the Mori have also converted to Christianity. But only after they conquered one of my provinces with church existing. And the Portuguese ship is sailing on the south coast the whole time where no Mori port exists afaik. So have they converted because they accept a portuguese offer or accidently because conquering one of my christian provinces?

[gollum]

This is tricky but bear with me. Your Daimyo accepts Christianity as his own religion once he builds or owns a Church. In that case the clan is given the Christian sign in the info menu and your provinces will start to gradually convert and opposition is met until the surpass the 50% limit.

However even if you don't build any Church and don't turn Christian yourself, the Portuguese will start spread Christianity once you accept a trade deal with them. This however mean that although Christianity can cause unrest the Daimyo and the majority of the (buddhist) subjects are not in opposition and the effect is far smaller.

In order for a Christian to turn Buddhist again all is needed is to build a Buddhist temple. Once this is done Christian status is lost again. However if now the majority of the population is Christian expect unrest anew.

By the way the only way for a Buddhist daimyo to boost Buddhism is via the temples, which are expensive. The Christian Daimyo on the other hand apart from Churches and the Cathedral can use the cheap and handy Jesuit priests that turn japan Christian in no time.

[ReluctantSamurai]

Your Daimyo accepts Christianity as his own religion once he builds or owns a Church.

Or builds a trading post. You can accept the offer anytime, but as long as you don't build either a church or a trading post, you won't begin the conversion process. You can defer as long as you like.......

[gollum]

Not exaclty sure about this, but its probably because the original that i usually play has slightly diferent behaviour in regards to this from MI/WE. You are most likely right.

[Pikenier]

So I was right with my assumption? The Mori converted only because they captured my province where I had built a church?

That´s interesting, maybe i can use this to cause some unrest at the other Daimyos too. Conquer a distant province building a church and retreat afterwards.

[gollum]

yes, you could do that in principle.

[caravel]

By the way the only way for a Buddhist daimyo to boost Buddhism is via the temples, which are expensive. The Christian Daimyo on the other hand apart from Churches and the Cathedral can use the cheap and handy Jesuit priests that turn japan Christian in no time.

A minor correction; buddhist emissaries also propogate buddhism - at least they do in STW MI/WE v1.02b.

Yohei

[gollum]

They do? That's great news. Thanks Yohei. I always thought they should have.

[Jef Costello]

I never used to bother with converting because the first few times I tried to use firearm units they got slaughtered, now I've worked out how to use them I use them if I capture the productiion facilities.

[ReluctantSamurai]

I never used to bother with converting because the first few times I tried to use firearm units they got slaughtered

You will find, as you become more proficient with them, that you will have to nerf them back to their original vanilla stats (from what they are given in WE/MI). And even further, you will probably limit yourself to the number of them in your army. Otherwise, they become too powerful.

I, personally, have a limit of four but I usually have only two.....three in dbl bridge provinces.

[Jef Costello]

You will find, as you become more proficient with them, that you will have to nerf them back to their original vanilla stats (from what they are given in WE/MI). And even further, you will probably limit yourself to the number of them in your army. Otherwise, they become too powerful.

I, personally, have a limit of four but I usually have only two.....three in dbl bridge provinces.

I've never altered any of the stats (don't know how for a start) but I don't find them to be a worry. I don't use them because they come later in the game when I am mostly on the atack. They are handy for defence, especially in bridge provinces.

[caravel]

I've never altered any of the stats (don't know how for a start) but I don't find them to be a worry. I don't use them because they come later in the game when I am mostly on the atack. They are handy for defence, especially in bridge provinces.

They are actually available very early on, but you need to accept the Portuguese and start building churches first.

[A Nerd]

I never really learned to use muskets effectively. Always developed them once the Dutch would visit though. Never converted to Christianity with the Portoguese. Never really wanted to sacrifice my warrior monks, I am a real infantry buff! From reading this thread though it would seem you can be christian and raise warrior monks too though. Call me strange, but I think I would feel alittle guilty doing that though...mabey I'm afraid of dishonoring those fanatical monks, I don't know!

[gollum]

Not being able to use muskets happened to all starting players with STW - once you get the hang of it, you'll realise what terrifyingly effective units they are especially in MI that they are far more powerful than in the original release.

There is an thread here from the Samurai wars sub-forum, as to how to use guns. It is written for multiplayer but the same principles apply:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...p?71538-Teppos

Some of the principles are for more advanced play, but nonetheless all are good info.

[ReluctantSamurai]

As has been already pointed out, you can gain access to guns quite early by accepting the Portuguese offer. I never wait for the Dutch as I can have muskets (rather than the arquebus) long before they arrive. I seem to recall having them as soon as 1560 (with a 1530 campaign) or 1565 (muskets, that is.....I never use the arquebus for very long).

I don't know which version you play, but in WE, the 1580 campaigns will have at least 3 Daimyo's converted to Christianity already, and the arquebus as field units. With some clans (particularly Oda and Shimazu) the musket will not be far behind. As Oda, the 1580 campaign will be nearly impossible without guns. I've always thought it to be the ultimate nightmare challenge for a STW player to play that campaign without guns I can't even imagine trying it, myself, and that's my favorite, most often played campaign..............

@ Jef

Once you get the hang of them, teppo can be as devastating on the attack as they are on the defense. You have to use them quite differently, of course, and you have to be very careful what type of terrain you use them on, because they are a direct line-of-sight type of fire. One of their very best uses on the attack is taking a bridge province. When enemy melee units turn their backs to return to their positions (after routing your sacrificial lambs) they take devastating fire in their rear and the morale-breaking effect of guns is amplified to its' greatest extent. Only very high honor units led by a high honor Taisho/Daimyo has any chance at resisting, and even then they often don't.

My suggestion is to set up some practice battles and try out some of the different techniques presented in the link that gollum was so kind as to provide........

[cori]

Convert or not convert? For me it depends on a clan I am playing..
Mori-never.. Uesugy and Hojo –no real need.. All other –convert immediately..
Main benefit-you not depends on good harvests so much…Very easy you can make trade and cathedral income equal yours farm ones, dubling totals. When in bad year will be only 12.5 % drop in total money.
And I never been fond of monks, if not play Mori-there are too expensive..

[caravel]

Welcome back cori,

Yes it's a very clan dependent thing. While most clans have a lot to gain, i.e. the Shimazu, Oda and Imagawa with their poor farmlands and split or exposed territories, with others the gains are not so pronounced or in the case of Mori, they lose the Monks their clan is focused around.

Trade and cathedral income are huge however, so even the Mori that, as with the Shimazu, start with poor farmlands can benefit greatly.

The Uesugi, Hojo and Takeda, have access to richer lands, so conversion is not really a necessity for them. The Uesugi also have the cheaper, archers making teppo a little less useful, the Hojo can build cheaper castles meaning income is not as stretched and the Takeda are more cavalry focused, so it makes more sense to spend your koku on these than on teppo units. It's by no means a rule though - a very individual thing.

Aside from the obvious advantages of teppo units and cathedral/trade income already discussed, there are other benefits of conversion. Your units will no longer suffer the morale penalty when facing the Warriori Monks, also because your lands differ religiously from most of your rivals, invaders will find it hard to hold down your provinces. This works the other way as well of course, but isn't a problem if you send in the priests en masse for a few seasons prior to invasion.

[Brandy Blue]

Send in the priests? I thought that conversion in STW was done by churches and cathedrals, or temples if Bhuddist, and that these buildings work on nearby provinces as well. Do the priests play a role in conversion?

[gollum]

a massive role BB. use them next time ;)

[caravel]

Send in the priests? I thought that conversion in STW was done by churches and cathedrals, or temples if Bhuddist, and that these buildings work on nearby provinces as well. Do the priests play a role in conversion?

Conversion works similarly to that in MTW. Priests, churches, the cathedral, buddhist temples and buddhist emissaries all play a part.

[Brandy Blue]

Thanks for the info. I don't know how conversions happened in real life, but it sort of makes sense if priests help.

[gollum]

Kinda makes sense, yes :) They're also dirt cheap, and you can make swarms of them ;)