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Thread: Some questions regarding EBII's Saka horse trappings

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  1. #1

    Default Re: Some questions regarding EBII's Saka horse trappings

    Quote Originally Posted by moonburn View Post
    herm if you consider steppes warfare there won´t be any weapons marks in the antlers since they wheren´t very keen on melee fighting as for the rest i´m a total ignorant on eastern and nomadic factions and all i know i learned from eb
    Well, given that the Pazyryk-2 'chieftain' mummy's injuries showed that he probably died from a sagaris blow to the head and a recently published study examining the '(...) skeletal remains of (seven) Pazyryk warriors with a particular focus on violence-related injuries' showed that from a 'total of 14 traumatic injuries(...) twelve injuries (86%) were related to interpersonal violence, most likely caused by weapons similar to those found in Pazyryk tombs (battle-axes, daggers and arrowheads)' it seems that the Central Asian Skythians/Saka weren't particular afraid of close combat - which would have left clear 'battle marks' on those elaborate and relatively fragile horse trappings made from leather, felt and wood ;)

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    The warriors of the steppes: osteological evidence of warfare and violence from Pazyryk tumuli in the Mongolian Altai

    Xavier Jordanaa, Ignasi Galtésa, Tsagaan Turbatd, D. Batsukhd, Carlos Garcíaa, Albert Isidroa, Pierre-Henri Giscard and Assumpció Malgosa

    Skeletal remains of Pazyryk warriors unearthed in a recent archaeological excavation in the Mongolian Altai offer a unique opportunity for verifying ancient histories of warfare and violence given by Herodotus in the fifth century BC. The Pazyryks were Iron Age nomadic groups associated with the eastern Scythians and known from burial site discoveries on the high steppes of the Altai (Central Asia). The aim of this paper is to analyze the evidence for bone trauma provided by the skeletal remains of these Pazyryk warriors with a particular focus on violence-related injuries. The sample consists of 10 individuals, comprising seven adult males, one adult female and two children. Seven individuals exhibited a total of 14 traumatic injuries. Six of these injuries (43%) showed evidence of bone remodelling and eight injuries (57%) were morphologically compatible with a perimortem origin. Twelve injuries (86%) were related to interpersonal violence, most likely caused by weapons similar to those found in Pazyryk tombs (battle-axes, daggers and arrowheads). Five individuals, including the female and one child, exhibited evidence of violent death. Furthermore, one individual also exhibited evidence of scalping. Despite the small number of Pazyryk skeletons analyzed, the pattern of traumatic injuries observed appears to be in agreement with that documented in conflicts related to raids or surprise attacks, and not a result of routinized or ritualized violence. These findings contribute new data to osteological evidence from Scythian burial sites.


    '...usque adeo res humanas vis abdita quaedam:opterit et pulchros fascis saevasque secures:proculcare ac ludibrio sibi habere videtur.' De rerum natura V, 1233ff.

  2. #2
    Member Member Gustave's Avatar
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    Default Re: Some questions regarding EBII's Saka horse trappings

    Wow. Looks like we shouldn't show stuff on twitter after all.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Some questions regarding EBII's Saka horse trappings

    Quote Originally Posted by Gustave View Post
    Wow. Looks like we shouldn't show stuff on twitter after all.
    ?!

    Excuse me, but with all due respect what's wrong with simply asking for the academical sources on which EBII unit concepts are based?
    Why that curious 'cast pearls before swine' attitude ?

    Given the EB II team's often stated aim for maximum historical authenticity and the without doubt excellent research accumulated in the unit conception threads on the development forum, is it really too much of an hassle giving a simple rationale for the use of an specific archaeological find - in this case the Pazyryk-2 antlered horse head gear - for an specific unit - Saka elite cavalry?

    After all it's a relatively simple matter of 'We choose to portray unit X in this way because inter alia academical source Y, line Z says so/supports such an interpretation. If you have a problem with that, don't play EBII. ' - I would be seriously disappointed if it is much of a problem for the EBII unit concept artists and researchers to provide such really basic information.

    If it's really to much of an hassle for the hard working researchers or will be covered in a future preview, please simply disregard this post and close this thread.

    Many thanks in advance.
    Last edited by Lvcretivs; 05-28-2011 at 15:39.


    '...usque adeo res humanas vis abdita quaedam:opterit et pulchros fascis saevasque secures:proculcare ac ludibrio sibi habere videtur.' De rerum natura V, 1233ff.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Some questions regarding EBII's Saka horse trappings

    Quote Originally Posted by Lvcretivs View Post
    What?!

    Excuse me, but with all due respect what's wrong with simply asking for the academical sources on which EBII unit concepts are based?
    There is nothing wrong with that per se, no. However whether you are going to get a useful reply is entirely up to the discretion of the historians who put this concept thread together. If they feel generous you might get a reply now. What you have seen so far is little more than a snapshot of a work in progress. I realise that you understand the following but I would like to stress it anyway: twitter is not the medium by which we communicate our broader motivations and aims in depicting history the way we do. We have previews for that purpose.

    Additionally, a lot of team members (myself included) do not really read these forums as intensively as you might expect.

    So in short, unless the historians who put the concept thread together have seen and are willing to entertain your questions I think that we should shelve them for now because other team members cannot really provide you with much of an answer without revealing more than we might want to right now. Again, there are previews for that.
    - Tellos Athenaios
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Some questions regarding EBII's Saka horse trappings

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios View Post
    There is nothing wrong with that per se, no. However whether you are going to get a useful reply is entirely up to the discretion of the historians who put this concept thread together. If they feel generous you might get a reply now. What you have seen so far is little more than a snapshot of a work in progress. I realise that you understand the following but I would like to stress it anyway: twitter is not the medium by which we communicate our broader motivations and aims in depicting history the way we do. We have previews for that purpose.

    Additionally, a lot of team members (myself included) do not really read these forums as intensively as you might expect.

    So in short, unless the historians who put the concept thread together have seen and are willing to entertain your questions I think that we should shelve them for now because other team members cannot really provide you with much of an answer without revealing more than we might want to right now. Again, there are previews for that.
    Many thanks, Tellos Athenaios , I'm well aware of all those aspects and completely agree with the team's position - and hope that the EB II historians feel generous right now . If not - well, than let's shelve those interesting questions for now and wait for the surely marvelous Saka preview to materialize
    Last edited by Lvcretivs; 05-28-2011 at 16:21.


    '...usque adeo res humanas vis abdita quaedam:opterit et pulchros fascis saevasque secures:proculcare ac ludibrio sibi habere videtur.' De rerum natura V, 1233ff.

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