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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: British Teenage Girl Fined for Kicking Attacker While Down

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios View Post
    Oh, I'll play. What you've overlooked in your righteous anger is that as frightened or as angry as she was she did continue administering the beating/kicking well after the guy was quite clearly not going to crawl back up (clear to other witnesses). That's sort of where the line between justified force crosses into needless violence. Once the guy is obviously not going to crawl back up without the help of an ambulance crew there's not much need for kicking him out of self defense...
    I'd laugh if this weren't so sad.

    Are teenage girls attacked by stalkers supposed to do health evaluations while they try to fight back? How can anyone in the heat of a fight do that?

    well after the guy was quite clearly not going to crawl back up (clear to other witnesses)
    It's clear now - and only now - and only because the incident is over and the results are there. And other witnesses? This, in the early morning? They had to be at least a bit away, looking at something in the night. And that's supposed to determine if self defense is legitimate? Some useless eyewitness (in so many trials eyewitnesses are wrong about what they saw) with a point of view that is much farther from the action?

    And of course the only rational response in an incident like this is exactly what this girl did - to beat the attacker unconscious (as she didn't have a gun). If the attacker isn't unconscious, then he can continue the fight and overpower his victim.

    I wish the idea that a victim must check on the health of their attacker and carefully determine if the attacker can get up or is unconscious while in the middle of a fight was so farcical and outlandish it need never be addressed, but sadly that is not the case.

    CR
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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: British Teenage Girl Fined for Kicking Attacker While Down

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    Are teenage girls attacked by stalkers supposed to do health evaluations while they try to fight back? How can anyone in the heat of a fight do that?
    This.


    On top of that, there is the humane consideration whether one shouldn't in the first place grant a girl in extreme danger her moments of unleashed anger and fear.
    Shame on these people and their petty formalist fascist-legalist legal interpretation. It's a teenage girl overcome by fear and anger. Bunch of twisted *******.
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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: British Teenage Girl Fined for Kicking Attacker While Down

    If the guy is unable to even get up, with people thinking he was probably dead. It is very safe to assume she can go through her front door and lock it behind her and phone the police. And if he tried to get up again, then she can obviously go and kick him down.

    What happened was that it ended up in a situation where the man who attempted to assault her had his life-force kicked right out of him, then he continued for a good 5 minutes after this point.

    All she got was a slap on the wrist anyway, so she got away pretty much with nothing.

    Sure, you could argue the predator deserves to be using a feeding tube for a week, but it is up for the justice system to deal out justice and not yourself.

    Only thing that needs to be done is for the predator to be charged with attempted assault, then it is good work for the legal system.
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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: British Teenage Girl Fined for Kicking Attacker While Down

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    If the guy is unable to even get up, with people thinking he was probably dead. It is very safe to assume she can go through her front door and lock it behind her and phone the police. And if he tried to get up again, then she can obviously go and kick him down.
    No, it is not safe to assume such a thing. What is it with people sitting behind computers dictating how things went and decreeing what was and wasn't safe for her to do? What if the door was locked, or she turned to go in and the attacker grabbed her ankles and tripped her? What if he got up and broke into her home anyway?

    A thousand possible situations, and the legal system wants to judge her actions with a bleeding heart for her attacker and perfect hindsight.

    What happened was that it ended up in a situation where the man who attempted to assault her had his life-force kicked right out of him, then he continued for a good 5 minutes after this point.
    What source do you have for the five minutes claim?

    Sure, you could argue the predator deserves to be using a feeding tube for a week, but it is up for the justice system to deal out justice and not yourself.
    There is no justice system, only a legal system. And the British legal system punished a victim of assault (and likely attempted rape) and let the would-be rapist go free. If that's how the legal system handles things, then it's not dealing out any justice.

    CR
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

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    Insomniac and tired of it Senior Member Slyspy's Avatar
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    Default Re: British Teenage Girl Fined for Kicking Attacker While Down

    Being fined £500 for kicking the crap out of someone isn't too bad. We all know that in such circumstances there is a line between self-defence and assault, to pretend otherwise is foolish.
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    Philologist Senior Member ajaxfetish's Avatar
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    Default Re: British Teenage Girl Fined for Kicking Attacker While Down

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    What happened was that it ended up in a situation where the man who attempted to assault her had his life-force kicked right out of him
    Clearly the assaulter recklessly endangered himself. He should be fined 500 pounds for causing himself such harm by instigating the altercation.

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    Default Re: British Teenage Girl Fined for Kicking Attacker While Down



    With its reputation for rock solid reliability, double action design, sleek layout, and compact size, the P232 is an excellent choice for self defense.

    Oh wait, this was in the UK.

  8. #8
    One of the Undutchables Member The Stranger's Avatar
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    Default Re: British Teenage Girl Fined for Kicking Attacker While Down

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post


    With its reputation for rock solid reliability, double action design, sleek layout, and compact size, the P232 is an excellent choice for self defense.

    Oh wait, this was in the UK.
    americas answer to everything.

    kill it!

    We do not sow.

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: British Teenage Girl Fined for Kicking Attacker While Down

    Quote Originally Posted by The Stranger View Post
    americas answer to everything.

    kill it!
    European answer to everything

    'ehhhhhh just don't'

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    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
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    Default Re: British Teenage Girl Fined for Kicking Attacker While Down

    Crazed Rabbit, you left out a few important things in your cutting and pasting:

    Burleigh, who was with her boyfriend Christopher Twaddle, 21, ripped off Docherty's black, paramilitary-style balaclava and defended herself.

    However, she went too far by continuing to kick her attacker on the head even after he was knocked unconscious.
    And:

    Police later found Docherty in a nearby street with severe facial injuries and called an ambulance to take him to hospital.
    So she was not alone, but with her 21 year old boyfriend and there were also witnesses around who saw her kicking him while unconscious. This makes it sound like less of a life and death situation one might imagine from the OP.

    And it's not simply a question of kicking someone when they are down - it's kicking an unconscious person to the head sufficiently violently to cause severe facial injuries.

    We don't know all the facts that were presented to the court. Until I know them, I am inclined to be charitable towards the court - the idea that courts are likely to be more sympathetic to a 43 year old male assailant than an 19 year old woman who was attacked is rather strange. I suspect there's more to it than we have been told. It's possible to imagine a scenario in which the verdict is outrageous but equally it is possible to imagine one where it is appropriate. Perhaps the 21 year old boyfriend knocked the drunked assailant unconscious and then Claire just kicked his face for good measure in while horrified onlookers watched.

    What does sound wrong is the assailant not being charged with assault.

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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: British Teenage Girl Fined for Kicking Attacker While Down

    Quote Originally Posted by econ21 View Post
    Crazed Rabbit, you left out a few important things in your cutting and pasting:
    I addressed that. It seems to me he was only determined to be unconscious by some witnesses who, in their expert medical judgement in the early morning in poor lighting decided the guy was unconscious.

    So she was not alone, but with her 21 year old boyfriend and there were also witnesses around who saw her kicking him while unconscious. This makes it sound like less of a life and death situation one might imagine from the OP.

    And it's not simply a question of kicking someone when they are down - it's kicking an unconscious person to the head sufficiently violently to cause severe facial injuries.
    Or maybe he got the injuries from falling on his face.

    We don't know all the facts that were presented to the court. Until I know them, I am inclined to be charitable towards the court - the idea that courts are likely to be more sympathetic to a 43 year old male assailant than an 19 year old woman who was attacked is rather strange.
    No stranger than the attacker not being charged. Besides, it's a British court, and they seem to frown on using violence in self defense. The only civilized thing to do is let the attacker do whatever he wants.

    This whole case is based on near-useless witnesses and the sadly-not-so-farcical idea that a girl being attacked has a legal duty to check on the health of her attacker while she fends him off, that being unconscious is an instantly recognized condition in the heat of the fight and can't be misinterpreted (hey, why do you think boxing and martial arts matches use refs to stop the fight?) and she has to follow marquess of queensberry boxing rules and let him get up without interference if he falls down.

    And on the notion, completely divorced from reality, that the instant the attacker is knocked back or falls their victim must cease fighting, and that somehow, maybe through magic, the attacker won't be back a split-second later.

    At least I know why this fine came about; because the majority of British people support this elevation of criminal rights. Violence, even in self defense, is so uncivilized.

    And as has been mentioned, there were other witnesses around, so she wasn't all alone and helpless, it's in the german self defense law as well from what I read on wikipedia.
    British witnesses - the sort who formed a society where women are prosecuted for effectively defending themselves and witnesses who come to the assistance of a victim can be criminally charged.

    CR
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: British Teenage Girl Fined for Kicking Attacker While Down

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    How can anyone in the heat of a fight do that?
    The heat of a fight should be gone when the guy is unconscious. Since when is it a fight to kick a motionless body on the ground?

    And as has been mentioned, there were other witnesses around, so she wasn't all alone and helpless, it's in the german self defense law as well from what I read on wikipedia.
    Excessive use of force is okay if someone is scared of the attacker, but if it's done out of pure hatred then it's not allowed. Now I guess she had a problem explaining how she was really scared of someone who was already unconscious due to her kicks.

    And yes, he should be charged with assault or whatever applies.


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    Member Centurion1's Avatar
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    Default Re: British Teenage Girl Fined for Kicking Attacker While Down

    Are we all overlooking fear of the situation. How did you feel again Husar when a man with a needle attacked you?

    Yeah she was probably terrified running high on adrenaline and not thinking too clearly. And now this likely sexual assaulter will get away with nothing not even a damn slap on the wrist he would get in America.

    Disgusting.

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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: British Teenage Girl Fined for Kicking Attacker While Down

    I'm born on the wrong continent.


    Enough. Tonight, I'm going to swim the entire Atlantic. Then I'm getting myself an NRA membership and an arsenal to put Rabbit's to shame. I'll practise shooting with PJ. Then I'm off for a few beers and some pool with Dave, with whom I'm going to discuss the capture of Osama and European law enforcement. Then I'll marry Strike, as a wedding gift I'll buy us a modest plot of land in Texas, say, the size of Belgium.
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    Speaker of Truth Senior Member Moros's Avatar
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    Default Re: British Teenage Girl Fined for Kicking Attacker While Down

    Getting killed, beaten the ..... out of you,... is the known risk you take when attacking someone/breaking in/... It's like a policemen suing the sate because he ended up in a dangerous situation. If you insist on being a criminal, at least take it as a man.

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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: British Teenage Girl Fined for Kicking Attacker While Down

    No charges were brought against Docherty.
    Forgive my lack of understinding of the legal system, but doesnt that mean the girl didnt actually try to get him imprisoned for assault, why would she not do so?
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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: British Teenage Girl Fined for Kicking Attacker While Down

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Forgive my lack of understinding of the legal system, but doesnt that mean the girl didnt actually try to get him imprisoned for assault, why would she not do so?
    I suspect this is because the UK gives assaulted girls 99 lashes for being outside without a male relative.
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    Philologist Senior Member ajaxfetish's Avatar
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    Default Re: British Teenage Girl Fined for Kicking Attacker While Down

    Quote Originally Posted by Centurion1 View Post
    And now this likely sexual assaulter will get away with nothing not even a damn slap on the wrist he would get in America.
    Well, apart from a mangled face, at least.

    Ajax

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    "I have no words, my voice is in my sword." --- Shakespeare
    "I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it." --- Jack Handey

  19. #19
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: British Teenage Girl Fined for Kicking Attacker While Down

    Quote Originally Posted by Centurion1 View Post
    Are we all overlooking fear of the situation. How did you feel again Husar when a man with a needle attacked you?
    He didn't attack me, he threatened me. And even though I felt scared/angry when I saw him later on, I never kicked his head in while he was lying unconsciously on the ground, despite several people here telling me to do that or similar things. That is because punishment has to be dealt out by a judge. I did have violent thoughts but that is also different from kicking the head of an unconscious person, with witnesses around.
    Of course I wasn't there, but the witnesses were, and someone decided based on their accounts that the girl kicked a bit too much, I don't see that as very hard to understand. It's not like they jailed her either, they just think she has to accept that she cannot just punish/kill someone because she thinks it's better for her, such is the nature of a modern constitutional state.

    And to come back to what you said, I was aware that some of the things I may have done to the guy would have been hard to explain to the police/a judge, that's one reason I didn't want to go there in the first place.


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    Just another Member rajpoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: British Teenage Girl Fined for Kicking Attacker While Down

    It is a 19 year old girl they are talking about, not a big man trained in martial arts.
    If the chap was a stalker who'd bothered her in the past, it is not surprising that she felt angry and afraid and lost control. Even if she kicked him when she was angry, in the light of the situation that he attacked her first, planning to make another one of those ugly cases that keep appearing in the news at frequent intervals, she shouldn't be fined.
    Once you're kicking someone in anger it's hard to stop unless you're trained to fight. So what was the girl's mistake? That she got angry at her attacker? That she decided to defend herself in anger?

    Now I don't know British laws, but hypothetically, let's say that the drunken man had hit some rock when he fell down, broken his skull and died? What would've been the girl's mistake then? Not kicking him in a safe direction?


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    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: British Teenage Girl Fined for Kicking Attacker While Down

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    It's not like they jailed her either, they just think she has to accept that she cannot just punish/kill someone because she thinks it's better for her
    Yes it probably was better for her not to be raped.

    Anyway, I can't believe anyone is defending this verdict. A guy that stalks a young woman at night in a balaclava should be thankful not to be leaving the scene in a body bag.

    I'll tell you what this is!

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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: British Teenage Girl Fined for Kicking Attacker While Down

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhyfelwr View Post
    Yes it probably was better for her not to be raped.
    Absolutely, but that was achieved when he was unconscious, she could have stopped kicking him and waited for police to come.
    Since she kept kicking him in the head I assume she either wanted him dead or has very little control over her anger.
    I meant that him being dead would be better for her than him being in prison but that doesn't mean she can do what she wants with him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hosakawa Tito View Post
    A Sheriff, ie law enforcement officer, acted as judge. Did I read this correctly ?
    That actually confused me a bit as well.
    Last edited by Husar; 05-29-2011 at 18:04.


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    Peerless Senior Member johnhughthom's Avatar
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    Default Re: British Teenage Girl Fined for Kicking Attacker While Down


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