Surreal little Belgium

[Moros]

You know that small little country Belgium and it's rather silly population who like to take a spin with logic and reality? Some might even know that flick Man bites dog or C'est arrivé près de chez vous in French. Currently we seem to be filming our new take on the never ending ending stroy. Well that government lacking country, with an kinda powerless ceremonic king who at the moment is the only one making political decisions, is delivering fine surreal television as well:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...010603387.html

Perhaps we should have sticked with France, the Netherlands, or whatever country that has a government and more than two working rifles. Sigh. Or is there someone willing to help me to lock some of those politicians up in some kind of small room, as long as it takes for them to make a deal?

[Fragony]

It's getting kinda silly, Belgium is a bit of a failed state. The Netherlands will happily adopt Flanders without questioning it's independence. Even better reunite but Flemish are kinda proud, being proud about Belgium geez allmighty

[Tellos Athenaios]

If Flanders seceded the last thing they'd be looking for is to become part of the Netherlands. And while in the long term there might not be any pressing reasons why the Netherlands should object to a re-union of some sort if Flanders were to approach them; in the short term such a reorganisation is one big nightmare nobody wants.

[Beskar]

Would be easier if they simply made Benelux more official and a republic at that.

[Brenus]

A Secession? Ooops… Problems: Sharing the money, the debts, the Army, Embassies to open, pension to resolve and of course minorities right in the mixed area… Remind me something… Ah, yes, Yugoslavia…
So, who will be the bad guys NATO will bomb? Not difficult as NATO HQ is in Brussels, they should know where is the Chinese Embassy…

So France will get the French Speakers Territories? Centuries of English Policy will be gone? Waterloo was fought in vain? If the Wallon are becoming independent alongside a Flamish (Republic?) this new country would have no access to the sea… I can predict a problem in sharing the navy…

[Fragony]

If Flanders seceded the last thing they'd be looking for is to become part of the Netherlands. And while in the long term there might not be any pressing reasons why the Netherlands should object to a re-union of some sort if Flanders were to approach them; in the short term such a reorganisation is one big nightmare nobody wants.

It's possible if we are the ones giving in, simply disband the Netherlands and become part of Greater-Flanders, capitol goes to Antwerpen or Leuven. np. Both harbours in our control, we would actually have a reason to make Antwerp competative by deepening de Schelde, best for all of us. Flanders is just as strong as the Netherlands if they cut of some dead weight, screw these arrogant walloons they can knock the EU's door for some change

[Fisherking]

Sure! A Republic of Flanders. Then you could sell the two royal families on eBay!

Congo and Indonesia might put in bids, don't you think?

[Fragony]

The royal families are a problem yeah, but Beatrix van Amsberg Lippe-Biesterfelt is old, and that fat of a retarded son and his golddigging juntawhore and their 3 little hatchlings, nobody takes them seriously, Maxima Zorrigueta is only in for the money and the crownprince is an idiot. In Belgium the royals are detested even more.

[InsaneApache]

More importantly who gets to keep making the beer?

[Furunculus]

belgium is approaching failed-state status, albeit in that nice and benign western european way, and it is quite funny that the principle of the nation state as home to a single demos is being so adequately demonstrated at the heart of the EU.

if flanders wished to join netherlands i would cheer them on, but in reality they are a very europhile bunch and may see no need to be part of a larger union when they are so heavily invested in the EU.

as for wallonia, that isn't really a viable entity on its own in the absence of flanders tax-coin to pay their social welfare tab, and they know it, so i imagine a sudden revelation about their french heritage would be in order.

[Louis VI the Fat]

As a genius comic once said, they seem determined to turn the whole of Belgium into one big living Hal.


Took me ages to figure it out. It only makes sense if one speaks French and English, and if one is aware of the Flemish-nationalist plots to curb the rights of Francophones in Bruxelles-Hal-Vilvorde.

[The Stranger]

Would be easier if they simply made Benelux more official and a republic at that.

no one wants luxembourg... and no one wants wallonia... and no one wants friesland...

[Tellos Athenaios]

we are the ones giving in, simply disband the Netherlands and become part of Greater-Flanders, capitol goes to Antwerpen or Leuven. np.

And you think that likely, do you? There's no pressing reason to dissolve the Netherlands, plenty of internal politicking to keep us entertained so the subject is not even raised in serious debate.

To me the fundamental issue is that Belgium is kept alive by an artificial political merry-go-round to distribute power evenly between Flanders and Walonia. That works if both are roughly equals, but Walonia really isn't equal to Flanders. It is significantly smaller in terms of population, and in terms of economic output it simply can't keep up either. Finally the real pain point is that Walonia is unwilling to reform, so as it is the region is not even fit to supply cheap labour in Flanders despite ostensibly being educated to speak a modicum of Dutch: immigrants do that job better and more enthusiastically.

But note that nothing here is some kind of “drive” for independence or union. No “one people/language, one country”, simply an allergic reaction to compromises to each other and a lack of structural reform in Walonia to propel its economy into the 21st century. In other words: those far reaching scenario's about an independent Flanders or a Netherlands-Flanders union are little more than show to drive a point home in Walonia.

[Tellos Athenaios]

as for wallonia, that isn't really a viable entity on its own in the absence of flanders tax-coin to pay their social welfare tab, and they know it, so i imagine a sudden revelation about their french heritage would be in order.

I expect Louis and the other Frenchies are better qualified to answer here (they'd be somewhat familiar with the French sentiments towards Belgium in general and Walonia in particular). Still, I very much doubt that France would actually want to adopt Walonia if Belgium were to be split.

Also, I doubt that Walonia would actually want to join with France. Right now 4.5 million who collectively do not earn their keep can pretend to be equal to about 6 million people who collectively earn their keep and then some to pay for the others. When Walonia joins with France they'll be the new Nord-Pas-de-Calais. A triple loss scenario: even less money, even less willingness of other regions to chip in, and far, far less political influence on the national level. They'd rather learn Dutch and take up jobs in Flanders.

[Peasant Phill]

Again for those not in the know. Belgium is a construction born from a monster alliance (true name). A joint venture by 2 different cultures for 2 different reasons under a royal family chosen for pragmatic reasons. BUT IT WORKS/WORKED more or less for more then 175 years now. We Belgians call ourselves surrealists and proud ourselves with our surreal art, our surreal humor and our surreal political solutions. Some criticize our construction others admire it but the truth is Belgium has endured relatively peaceful where other similar challenged countries fell apart with or without violence.

The Belgian political crisis is the result of a right/conservative wave going across the European political landscape. Belgium will not fall but will be remodeled in perhaps the most surreal way possible.

[Hosakawa Tito]

More importantly who gets to keep making the beer?

Ya read my mind, IA. What about the beer & chocolates?

[Peasant Phill]

Ya read my mind, IA. What about the beer & chocolates?

Will somebody please think about the beer and chocolates.

[Louis VI the Fat]

French sentiments towards Belgium in general and Walonia in particular). Still, I very much doubt that France would actually want to adopt Walonia if Belgium were to be split.

If Belgium were to split up, Flanders would become independent and Wallonia would be occupied immediately...erm...be intimidated into joining...erm...join of its own free accord...erm... would be liberated into France.

France would not pass up the opportunity to get a bit bigger. France has a will to power. Plus it helps to even out the balance with Germany.

Brussels is the great big problem. It is what keeps Belgium together. The only solution I see is to give Brussels some sort of special status, a free city, or a 'Brussels DC' - a European district. Other than that, Belgium will have to stay intact unless either side is willing to give up Brussels.


Wallonia isn't all that scared to see Flanders go. It will immediately join an even bigger source of subsidies, the limitless funds of the French state, with equally generous social provisions. Wallonia is far less depenedent on Flanders in this respect than is sometimes assumed.
The thing is that there is not really such thing as a Walloon nation. The project of Flanders is Flanders, the project of Wallonia has always been Belgium. There is no Wallonia outside of the existence of Belgium. And - this has ired the Flemings those past two centuries - it is even dificult to conceive of a Belgium outside of Wallonia. Belgium started out as a francophone nation, with some local minority languages, Latin in the south and the even smaller Germanic ones in the north. The francophones have made Belgium, made it independent, had the continent's first industrialisation, made Belgium fabulously wealthy, gave it an identity. It did not occur to the Walloons that those handful of rural peasants with their incomprehensible tongues would one day turn their minority a vast majority, would then agitate against Belgium. Call it the revenge of the priests over the liberals and socialists: the Walloons may have driven God out of the heads of urbanised Belgium, but the priests controlled the wombs of the peasantry.

Wallonia has never gotten over this shock, moreso because it roughly coincided with de-industrialisation and massive immigration. Wallonia has a cultural identity problem.

Their is an upside to that. It is impossible for Flanders to join the Netherlands - Flemish identity is Flemish, the project of Flemish nationalism has been Flanders. Whereas Wallonia can easily join France. The identity of Wallonia is mostly just that of 'francophone part of a larger state'. Walloon nationalism is very crudely developed. A Walloon is always 'a Belgian', whereas a Fleming is always 'a Fleming'. Oddly, the majority population (Flanders) still behaves in the manner of a minority, has retained the reflexes of a threatened minority part. For example, in Spain the Catalan (minority) will always say he is 'a Catalan', whereas a Castillian (majority) will always say he is 'Spanish'.

[Louis VI the Fat]

For 130 out of its 180 years of existence, Wallonia has been wealthier and more advanced than Flanders. This period the Flemings describe as 'Walloon oppression' - because the wealthy Walloons kept the poor Flemings down by being wealthier and stronger. The fifty years that Flanders has been wealthier the Flemings describe as 'Walloon oppression' - because the poor Walloons keep the wealthy Flemings down by being poorer and weaker.

~~o~~o~~<<oOo>>~~o~~o~~

Mind that Belgium consists of more than Walloonia and Flanders. Most importantly, Brussels is a separate entity. Brussels is ninety percent francophone, home to nearly a quarter of all Belgian francophones. Brussels is by far the richest, most vibrant part of Belgium's economy, a European economic powerhouse, the richest per capita in Europe, without equal in Flanders. But Brussels is often not part of Walloon statistics!

Talented, cosmopolitan, urban francophones employed in creative industries are not counted in Walloon statistics - their glamorous capital of Brussels, the centre of Europe, is not included. But the bankrupt sillion industriel is, the unemployed in the provincial towns are. This can create some very skewed statistics.

[Moros]

Err... no?

[Louis VI the Fat]

Err... no?

'Err... no?' means which of the follwing five options:

A - You are talking bollox Louis
B - Err...doesn't it?
B - These options need to be split into two sets
3 - I wasn't talking to you, I had just done my bit to alleviate international fears for our beers by consuming an ungodly amount of it then coming here to show it

[Fragony]

Option X butt I would get banned if I did

@TA see no reason why we couldn't merge. OK they hate our guts,but stil a good idea

[Beskar]

Option X butt I would get banned if I did

@TA see no reason why we couldn't merge. OK they hate our guts,but stil a good idea

Yeah, Andres wouldn't appreciate it if you exposed your butt in the Belgium thread.

[Moros]

'Err... no?' means which of the follwing five options:

A - You are talking bollox Louis
B - Err...doesn't it?
B - These options need to be split into two sets
3 - I wasn't talking to you, I had just done my bit to alleviate international fears for our beers by consuming an ungodly amount of it then coming here to show it

Sorry but your posts came over as a very very cartoony take on things.

On the merging of Flanders with the Netherlands. Well I have to dissappoint you Frags, but in the polls almost every Fleming answered along the lines of 'No, nay, never'! Though some of the most radical nationalists often would like an anschluss with the Netherlands or with both the Netherlands and Germany. Most would never want that. Also culturally we are very different. Even though we use mostly the same words and almost the same grammar (verb order is sometimes different over here), you have completely different way of communicating anyway. While we often find the dutch way (very open and direct) of talking and communicating entertaining and sometimes even preferable, we're just to rapidly offended or assume sarcasm in your words. My sister had this Dutch teacher in communication the other day. And while she without doubt knew her theory, she couldn't put it to practice with Belgium, because she just offended and angered everyone without knowing. Also tv demonstrated how much we're different. Dutch tv is so hyperactive compared to ours and you guys don't seem to be able to stop talking for a second. The complete way of life, take food, is just different. If you go to a Belgium town you don't know and you enter a restaurant most of the time it will be decent. In the Netherlands you really need to know where you go. And please stop getting your food out of a wall!

Anyway I just hope some of these politicians come to their senses before we become like Portugal or Spain or something. Or even worse Greece or Ireland. Talks of a new temporary government or something like that are popping up, I guess at least that's something... Sigh.

[Hax]

On the merging of Flanders with the Netherlands. Well I have to dissappoint you Frags, but in the polls almost every Fleming answered along the lines of 'No, nay, never'! Though some of the most radical nationalists often would like an anschluss with the Netherlands or with both the Netherlands and Germany. Most would never want that. Also culturally we are very different. Even though we use mostly the same words and almost the same grammar (verb order is sometimes different over here), you have completely different way of communicating anyway. While we often find the dutch way (very open and direct) of talking and communicating entertaining and sometimes even preferable, we're just to rapidly offended or assume sarcasm in your words. My sister had this Dutch teacher in communication the other day. And while she without doubt knew her theory, she couldn't put it to practice with Belgium, because she just offended and angered everyone without knowing. Also tv demonstrated how much we're different. Dutch tv is so hyperactive compared to ours and you guys don't seem to be able to stop talking for a second. The complete way of life, take food, is just different. If you go to a Belgium town you don't know and you enter a restaurant most of the time it will be decent. In the Netherlands you really need to know where you go. And please stop getting your food out of a wall!

I am going to move to Flanders. It sounds awesome.

[HoreTore]

Brussel is too important to Europe to allow the petty bickering of Wallons and Flems(?) to disrupt its works.

Therefore, I suggest that the population of Belgium is to be relocated to Sibiria, and then repopulate the land with cooperative Europeans instead.

[rory_20_uk]

Brussel is too important to Europe to allow the petty bickering of Wallons and Flems(?) to disrupt its works.

Therefore, I suggest that the population of Belgium is to be relocated to Sibiria, and then repopulate the land with cooperative Europeans instead.

Aaah, proper Stalinist ideals live on in the hearts and minds of Europhiles...

[Moros]

I am going to move to Flanders. It sounds awesome.

You can continue 'Sinologie' at Leuven after all!

Edit: Also with Flanders joining the Netherlands nothing would change. We'd still have this group of fellas who act strange and are poorer than us. And we (apparantly) can't stand people with less money than us. Now a reunited Republic of Limburg, now that's a plan!

Waar in't bronsgroen eikenhout, 't nachtegaaltje zingt...

[Peasant Phill]

Belgium started out as a francophone nation, with some local minority languages, Latin in the south and the even smaller Germanic ones in the north. The francophones have made Belgium, made it independent, had the continent's first industrialisation, made Belgium fabulously wealthy, gave it an identity. It did not occur to the Walloons that those handful of rural peasants with their incomprehensible tongues would one day turn their minority a vast majority, would then agitate against Belgium. Call it the revenge of the priests over the liberals and socialists: the Walloons may have driven God out of the heads of urbanised Belgium, but the priests controlled the wombs of the peasantry.

Wallonia has never gotten over this shock, moreso because it roughly coincided with de-industrialisation and massive immigration. Wallonia has a cultural identity problem.

Weren't those handful of peasants always the majority and the francophones a more powerful minority?
From the beginning the Froncophones were hareder in their resistance against Dutch rule. The Flemmings only engaged in the revolt when Willem kept ignoring their demands (the 12W's: Wij willen Willem weg, wil Willem wijzer worden wij willen Willem Weer We want Willem gone, If Willem becomes wiser we want Willem back.). That's what, in my opinion, gave the francophones a morale hold over the dutch speakers (and the resulting posts in the new government). On one side the riches that came with the mining and on the other French as the language of the revolution. From then on French was promoted to people who wanted to partake in a life higher than 'peasant'-life.

Sure, priests were heavily involved in the rediscovering of the Flemish identity but I doubt that the influence was but on the political stage the influence of the church was similar on both sides of the language border.

[Fragony]

Wth you on about restaurants Moros, the Netherlands is a much safer place for a random pick, restaurants are much better here than in Belgium. Shops aren't though, I would love to have that. The rudeness, we don't notice it about ourselves it's not intentional, but I know how it comes across, a world sensitivety training could be a good idea but I kinda like how we do things here, if you got a problem with something nobody will mind if you shove it straight in their face, our way of good manners, being overly polite is suspect to us. Belgian aren't all that different when it comes to that, just more subtle

Still, it's the economy stupid, much better of with us. Flanders would become the powerhouse it should be. Grow up.