Crusader Kings [Concluded]

[Kagemusha]

My soldiers were not in Mide for combat. If I had wanted to seize Mide, I would have simply marched over your forces and taken it. I had three hundred more men than your forces, but I decided escalating a conflict this early would not be in anyone's best interests. It was not I who behaved rashly.

If you wish the girl to be sent to the Monastery, you should have sent her to the Bishopric, not taken her as a hostage. You claim you want a group consensus on a legitimate claim for Mide, but you march your forces in to take it, and seize the young girl? At the suggestion of the Duke of Leinster taking Mide, you aggressively called the rest of us conspirators. You must make up your mind, Duke of Connaught. Will you be a compromiser, as you claim, or are you the aggressor your armies have shown you to be?

Your accusations are hollow Duke of Ulster. Had you informed what you were planning all this would not even happened. So there is no point for you accusing me of faul play when it was my actions that have shown to others that you were the one hiding your cards.
Now i would like to hear what you propose, not empty accusations. My troops were not in Mide to fight yours, but to pacify the county which we did.

The fact is that Mide is pacified and the situation can be resolved the way the Bishop wants it to be resolved. I cant understand why are you so grim about it?

[Jolt]

OOC: Wait, something's definitely off.

[seireikhaan]

I am not grim, Duke. I told you to relinquish the province, as it is the Bishop's, not yours. If you do as you claim, and hand control over to the Bishop, there will be no problems. But as of now, you control it illegally, and I would remind you of that fact, so we do not come to more misunderstandings.

[Kagemusha]

And like i said, Duke.If you were to handle your stratagems more openly we would not get into affairs like this in the first place. Now let us wait what our Bishop says.

[johnhughthom]

Just to clarify, if two armies are in the same county and I haven't received orders to the contrary, they will treat each other as hostiles, unless they have an official alliance. This is slightly different to how Crusader Kings works on the PC, but is necessary in a multiplayer environment.

[Jolt]

Nah, I'm pulling out of the game because I cannot agree with how the whole Mide affair has been going, the turn after it was agreed Church was getting it (No warning I needed to invade it), and now my army simply packing up and leaving without even probing or engaging any enemy when I gave no order to retreat, especially when a minor battle or minor skirmish with Connaught if they decided to resist would have been very useful. I very much have to guess on how to proceed and while there is too much freedom in some parts (As to having to invade a province instead of automatically switching sovereignty), on others, you have to get nitpicky on orders and fill out to include every possible scenario or otherwise what you send in the orders is probably not gonna happen. The game had potential though, thus why I had originally decided to play it.
Best of luck to all who will still play.

[Kagemusha]

Im not sure what to say, but i hope no one should tell in the public thread anything which might spoil the game. I still hope you would reconsider.

[Jolt]

Im not sure what to say, but i hope no one should tell in the public thread anything which might spoil the game. I still hope you would reconsider.

Nah, I'm out. Don't worry, I'm not spoiling anything. I was merely saying the obvious. Whether intended or not, Connaught attacking Church forces inside Mide would have been diplomatically useful for the Church.

[Kagemusha]

Nah, I'm out. Don't worry, I'm not spoiling anything. I was merely saying the obvious. Whether intended or not, Connaught attacking Church forces inside Mide would have been diplomatically useful for the Church.

I can understand that.Thank you for playing. I think you played your role top notch.

[Diamondeye]

I can understand that.Thank you for playing. I think you played your role top notch.

Agreed. And I can understand Jolt's sentiments as well... Well, we need a new bishop, then, or this becomes Total War

[TheLastDays]

Conaught forces would not have fought the church's forces as our forces had clear orders to hand over the county to a church representative after pacifying the land.

Anyway, thanks for playing Jolt and all the best!

[Beskar]

OOC: I can swap to bishop, if desired. But I can understand why this might be a bad idea/opposed otherwise due to my playing in Ulster until now.
Edit: Leaves Ulster understaffed, so still causes a problem. Withdrawn.

Edit2:
I actually agree with the Hosts call on this one. John made it clear near the start that the province would not magically just become Jolt's without orders, whether or not people 'agreed' in thread. It is like me agreeing to send in a protection order in a mafia game, then not send in the night order, nothing happens without the order.

Only questionable element is what Kagemusha actually put in his orders, if Kage is willing to send me that OOC, I would have better understanding. However, from what it looks like, Kage had some ulterior motives and if so, John made the correct call.

As for the retreat... Kagemusha's forces made Jolt retreat from the province, which is a "defeat" but you get to still keep your men. It is still very diplomatically useful.

[AggonyDuck]

I'm interested in taking over as Bishop.

[A_Dane]

I'd like to hear the hosts voice on this actually.

If an order was actually given to hand over the province to church representatives, which the church army must be seen as, an error has been made during this turn. If no such order was given however, and this is the outcome of it, Connaught must be seen as an aggressor, unlawfully taking possession of the province.

[Kagemusha]

OOC:The thing with host is that he is the only one who actually knows what our orders were, so place your trust on him.

As Duke of Connaught i say again.I did what i said what i would do. Apparently the Bishop was not with his army and Ulster had ordered an retreat in case my lads would show up. There is no need for speculation, when i have already told you what i think about the situation. Had i wanted to take the county to myself, the Mide lass would have already been married to a Connaught noble.

[Beskar]

OOC:The thing with host is that he is the only one who actually knows what our orders were, so place your trust on him.

OOC:

[johnhughthom]

I'm interested in taking over as Bishop.

I'd be delighted to have you play, I'll drop you a pm to let you know how your role works.

I'd like to hear the hosts voice on this actually.

If an order was actually given to hand over the province to church representatives, which the church army must be seen as, an error has been made during this turn. If no such order was given however, and this is the outcome of it, Connaught must be seen as an aggressor, unlawfully taking possession of the province.

This is a game with rules which are deliberately vague, some may see that as poor game design but it is intentional. I want players to experiment with different ideas, if I give you a dilemma with two options and you think of a third, try it. People already have and I usually accept them. One inevitable outcome of this is that I will have to make judgement calls, that's what happened here. Jolt disagreed with it, but I stand by it. One thing I would say is anybody who has played Crusader Kings will know a lot of things are based on a percentage chance, the same is true here. If an event occurs and you pick an option but nothing happens you might think that was pointless, you don't know what might have happened however. Almost everything in the game has an element of chance, nothing is guaranteed to succeed and nothing is guaranteed to fail. Some of the stats you have received in your orders may also seem superfluous and irrelevant, they aren't, certain elements of gameplay simply haven't been revealed yet.

I can totally understand Jolt's annoyance and the fact is what happened with Mide was a close call, I got three sets of orders sending soldiers in to Mide which weren't co-ordinated. Things may or may not have been agreed in thread, but nothing in here is taken as an order, I could run the game without reading what the players post in here (I do read them, don't worry ). If I make a judgement call and it isn't popular, it won't be replayed, games like this need momentum and delays and redoing phases kill enjoyment. I would ask, though, that each Dukedom puts their orders in a single post in the QT, which may be edited up to the end of the phase, to make my misinterpreting your orders less likely.

If anybody has any questions just pm me and I'll answer as best I can.

[A_Dane]

All right,

Never wanted the actual orders, but that's sufficient enough. The Duke of Connaught has either had too high expectations regarding the warlike nature of the bishop, or been too vague.

EDIT: Also, regardless of what the duke of Connaught actually ordered, I think he should relinquish the province immediatly. If no new Bishop is appointed before the next turn, he should agree, that the province should go within Ulsters care until such a time, when a new bishop can take it. And i suggest Ulster because they're currently the smallest dukedom, and it would upset the balance of power the least, if they temporarily got another province.

[TheLastDays]

We will surely not give the province into the care of any other Dukedom. There is no guarantee they will ever give it up to the church if we do so. This is nonsense.
There definitely has to be a new bishop, any delaying in that matter will only further confusion.

[A_Dane]

Just like none of the remaining dukedoms can even remotely accept the possibility that Connaught gains another province, and becomes even stronger.

If the Duke of Connaught has as peaceful intentions as he claims, he sees the logic in giving the province, temporarily, into the care of the Dukedom with a less ammount of provinces. We have no guarantee you will give it up either, so it's really a matter of showing good will.

[AggonyDuck]

I've taken over as the Bishop.

Regarding Mide, we do not particularly blame the Duke of Connaught for the incident, but we do expect him to donate the province to the church this year as was agreed upon earlier. Failure to do so will not be seen favourably in the eyes of God and his holiness the Pope.

The Bishop

[A_Dane]

problem is appareantly solved then.

[Csargo]

Welcome Bishop AggonyDuck.

I hope the issue of the County of Mide can come to a close now.

[johnhughthom]

I'm still waiting on quite a few orders, so I'll extend 24 hours.

[AggonyDuck]

It would probably had been a smart thing to inform me of the deadline. :D

[johnhughthom]

I still don't have orders from lazy Leinster, I'm going to have to extend again (sorry) unless you all want to do a co-ordinated attack on them...

Another 24 hours, if I don't have orders I'll choose myself.

[Diamondeye]

What. I posted replies to our events already. Like, Tuesday.

[johnhughthom]

Fair enough, it was posted as if you were asking for opinions from your vassals, I'll use them and end the phase now.

[johnhughthom]

1073

1073 was a grim year in Ireland. The County of Mide was handed over to church control, but 3 years of banditry and lawlessness had left it in a terrible shape. Drought came to the County of Laigin, drastically reducing the prosperity and killing many peasants. Across the island the nobles ruling were seen as Godless and unrest was everywhere, prosperity withered across Ireland. The ruling classes sat in their castles, playing the game of thrones, did they care what the little man thought or did? The next few years would see.


All results out, let me know if I missed anything. I'll not set a deadline for this phase as activity was low last weekend, I'll end it when I get all the orders.

Phase 5 begins.

[Diamondeye]

Fair enough, it was posted as if you were asking for opinions from your vassals, I'll use them and end the phase now.

Well I was but the lazy buggers seem to be asleep. No wonder the peasants are angry with the nobility...