Is the tech tree too slow in this game?

[gauch0]

I'm playing my first long campaign, and for the first time I've researched the tech that will allow me to produce geishas. Unfortunately, I'm one province away from victory, and it will take me six turns to build the city improvement that makes geishas. I'm finding myself stalling just so that I can see a geisha unit.

What does everyone think about the speed of progression through the tech tree in this game? So far I have never seen a geisha, and I have never built a legendary building. I rarely get through half the techs before I win. Should the tech progression be faster? Or am I playing wrong?

(FYI: I am playing on H/H.)

[Leptomeninges]

People have commented on this elsewhere, but in my opinion the problem isn't so much that the tech tree is too slow. The problem is that the campaign tends to be won or lost in the first 20 turns or so. They seem to have balanced the campaign's difficulty around those opening moves when you are often attacked from multiple sides at once. But once you stabilize your borders and get a strong foothold, the "mopping up" seems inevitable. I've never come close to needing the full set of turns allocated to any campaign length to finish the victory conditions. As a result, I never work my way very far down the tech tree. (Most recently playing on VH/VH. Haven't tried legendary yet.)

In my opinion the solution isn't to speed up tech. It's to make the mid-game more challenging and slow it down. It's even possible they could achieve this with a couple fixes like archer siege AI.

RD is a nice idea. But I think it would be better if it wasn't so easy to game it. Introduce a random element to RD? Take away the "fame bar?" As it stands it's pretty easy to sit just short of RD while preparing four or five province conquests you can launch simultaneously while pushing RD. Longer campaigns actually seem easier as you can pick up more provinces before pushing RD.

[gauch0]

Interesting points. Another idea might be to add more volatility to the general-loyalty mechanic. I have not had to deal with any traitorous generals yet.

[Gregoshi]

But I think it would be better if it wasn't so easy to game it. Introduce a random element to RD? Take away the "fame bar?" As it stands it's pretty easy to sit just short of RD while preparing four or five province conquests you can launch simultaneously while pushing RD.

That is the problem. Too much of the strategy and tactics I see discussed sound like "gaming it". Many aspects of the game are hard numbers rather than fuzzy concepts, thus allowing us to exploit things right up to the brink to our advantage and the AI's detriment. The Realm Divide is a great concept and does (or "did" in the early days) extend the challenge of the campaign, but it obviously still needs some help to keep the challenge viable for longer, thus making the campaigns longer and thus more of the tech tree accessible.

[Forward Observer]

Unless one turtles, it seems pretty impossible to finish out both sides of the tech tree. I have yet to finish either single side--even in two long domination campaigns. I'd like to see them add the ability to trade or steal techs like Napoleon and Empire had. That was how I got a good percentage of my early techs out of the way. It also seems to me that once you vanquish a clan you should acquire any odd techs that they had managed to learn.

Another thing that seems weird is that I have yet to come up against an opposing force after I had achieved the Bushido art that gave me flaming arrows where they didn't have them also. In other words it seems like the minute I get flaming arrows, everybody else appears to have them too. I makes me think that at the point that I achieve some of the techs, they are also given to the A.I.


Of course, this may simply be my imagination, and whether the A.I. effectively uses all their techs is another matter. If I ever run in to an equal size B.A.I army on the field with a mangonel, it's going to be interesting.

Cheers

[Graphic]

Just right IMO. Saves the really powerful stuff for late game. If it was any faster you'd be fighting for a while with the whole thing researched and that wouldn't be much fun IMO.

[Dead Guy]

It's great as it is. You get to choose something to focus on, or be average at everything.

In my most recent Oda campaign on Legendary, I chose to go all the way down the spear side of Bushido after getting the farming techs. Training Oda Yari Ashigaru with 5 experience, +2 armor and +4 melee in castles kind of unbalances the game and should really not be possible unless you've focused your tech like that, and sacrificed cavalry efficiency etc in the process.

Naginata Monks can also be trained with 7xp with little hassle, 9xp from the get go with a few more turns put into either traditional building or getting the famous temple (Theoretically 11 if you get both I think? +3 from arts, +4 from famous temple, +4 from fortified monastery). That should not happen in every campaign IMHO.

On the topic of gaming the Realm Divide, I managed to do that a lot better in this short campaign than in my previous long ones. I allied and married with quite a lot of clans before I hit the divide and managed to capture Kyoto and the provinces needed to win long before most of the clans declared war on me. It could be argued that was just prudent diplomacy though...

[Rothe]

I suppose some people are "completionist" and think that a game should let you experience all the content when playing through it. I disagree, although on my first playthrough I was perhaps thinking that more techs would be interesting.

I think it is a good thing that I can't really be a master of all the different troop types even at endgame.
It makes the campaigns more different. Sometimes I have strong spears/naginata and muskets, and other times I am a master of the bow and sword. Sometimes I have lots of chi advances, but only a narrow part of the bushido tree. It is all ok.

What is more of a problem is that some of the techs don't reward enough for getting them. So far I never got the tech to boost metsuke, or the sumo tech. Perhaps a slight rebalancing so that the obviously powerful techs cost a bit more in turns, and the less powerful ones could be a bit faster.

I usually play long campaigns with my final push for Kyoto coming close to 1670 - 1675 or so. By that time, I tend to have decent tech, but nowhere near a complete set of either side.

I have mentioned it before, but to mention it again: As an effect of the bushido tree, the most recent recruits always seem to be better than any already fielded troops who have fought battles. Perhaps the tech effects should be retroactively applied, so that the veteran troops are not obsoleted.

[Liberator]

Another thing that seems weird is that I have yet to come up against an opposing force after I had achieved the Bushido art that gave me flaming arrows where they didn't have them also. In other words it seems like the minute I get flaming arrows, everybody else appears to have them too. I makes me think that at the point that I achieve some of the techs, they are also given to the A.I.

I think it is the same as in Empire; the more often a tech has been researched, the easier becomes research of the tech for the factions who don't had it until then. This is part of the game mechanics, and makes some intuitive sense to me.
Furthermore, I guess the AI mainly focuses on bushido arts, as I assume their economy is subsidized heavily based on my knowledge of other total war games... so some basic research on chi arts is enough for them. In my recent campaign, the bushido arts listed at the same stage of development could be researched a lot quicker as the chi arts later on, as the bushido arts were already research by some AI factions...

My opinion on research: It could be quicker, but the real problem I see is that you can no longer build academies as in Empire; now schools, libaries and acadamies are fixed on the map ... If these buildings could be build everywhere like recruitment buildings, I could have speeded up my research a lot once I had more than 10 provinces...