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Thread: Oda guides, hints and tips

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    Liar and Trickster Senior Member Andres's Avatar
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    Default Oda guides, hints and tips

    Please, post your strategies, hints and tips for playing with the Oda clan here.
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    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oda guides, hints and tips

    Oda: A Guide to Peasant Power


    [This guide was based on a play through on N/N long campaign, prior to the Ikko-Ikki DLC.]

    INTRODUCTION: ODA ARE NOT HARD

    The Oda have a reputation as a hard faction, but this may be a carry-over from the original Shogun Total War. In the original game, they were a hard faction. This was by virtue of their central starting position, which left them exposed on two fronts - to both east and western clans - and because their bonus was for ashigaru, a unit that did not belong on the battlefield. In STW2, they retain that central position, but this is less of a disadvantage in the new game. Furthermore, in STW2, even vanilla ashigaru are respectable troops and will form the mainstay of most clan's early to mid-game armies. If Oda are difficult in STW2, it is because they are embattled at the start and close to extinction – if you play other factions' campaigns, you will often see Oda under AI control fall on turn 1 or 2. However, this critical situation can be resolved within a few turns and thereafter Oda’s difficulty should perhaps be described as “normal”.

    Strengths:

    1. Cheap, higher quality Ashigaru give a powerful military edge early in the game, when ashigaru will by economic necessity be the mainstay of one’s army. Later in the game, lower costs are still an economic benefit.

    2. Central location gives access to a good range of specialist provinces and total freedom over where to expand (they can opportunistically move east or west depending on what weaknesses emerge amongst their neighbours).

    Weaknesses:

    1. You start the game under threat of extinction: you may have to replay the first few turns several times to survive.

    2. Your south-central location means you are the furthest away from trade nodes and will always be exposed on multiple fronts (unlike “corner” factions).


    STRATEGIC MOVES: SURVIVE, BLITZ THEN TURTLE

    The first few critical turns

    This is where Oda earn their reputation as hard in STW2. The opening situation is critical – there is a rebel army to your south; you are at war with the Saito to your north and the Tokugawa to your east , both of whom are marching armies that will arrive at your capital by the end of turn 1 or 2. Make a mistake in the first one or two turns and it is game over.

    There are several ways to survive the opening turns. What I did was:

    1) Take part one bow ashigaru and two yari ashigaru plus a general to defeat the rebels, then return with them to defend my capital the same turn. Use a larger army and the rebels will retreat, so that you cannot defeat them and get back to defend your capital in one turn.

    2) Defeat the Saito army besieging your capital and then the Tokugawa army.

    3) Quickly advance on the Saito capital, skirting any remaining army, and capture it to secure the north for a while.

    4) Then turn on the Tokugawa, advancing along the southern coast.


    Initial expansion

    Generally, you want to be very aggressive in the early game. Attack and become large before the other clans do. This may be good advice for all factions, but perhaps particularly for Oda, with its exposed starting position and reliance on large numbers of weak units. When picking targets for conquest, I paid special attention to province specialisms – these are well depicted in this online map:

    http://shogun.bitcrumbs.com/

    Equally important is an appreciation of the vulnerabilities of each province. While one province may border many others, mountains can make borders inaccessible and create “corridors” of provinces that are more defensible than might at first appear.

    I recommend the following two stage approach to initial expansion:

    First, take the south-central coastal corridor: Conquering the Tokugawa and their masters, the Imagawa, is recommended. Not only are they your enemies whose forces you have already defeated to survive the opening turns, but also they provide a “safe” channel for expansion. Typically in Total War, conquering one province opens you up to fresh attack from newly adjacent provinces – this is particularly dangerous in the early game, when clans may declare war on any over-stretched neighbour (taking North Shinano, for example, can be a death trap for this reason). However, mountains protect the Mikawa and Totomi from attack from the north, so you can safely advance to capture Suruga and only have to worry about garrisoning that province from land attack. Suruga is an attractive province, as its philosophical tradition specialism will provide a welcome boost to research while Mikawa specialises in horses. (Totomi is destined to be only a backwater market town).

    Then take the south central bulge After advancing down the south-central coastal corridor, you now have flexibility over where next to expand. I turned west to take Isa, having been backstabbed by the Kitabatake. I ultimately conquered all of south central bulge: Omi, Iga, Yamamoto and Kii. These formed a fairly defensible cluster of provinces and all had nice ninja or Hallowed ground bonuses. I feared I would be vulnerable to attack from the north, but this did not come in any significant form (this was prior to the Ikko-Ikki DLC). Having Kyoto on your borders is a blessing, as the Ashikaga Shogunate are passive neighbours in the early to mid-game. You are less vulnerable to attacks from the east via Mino or Suruga, as any attacks must be channelled through these two choke points. Again, I was not seriously challenged from that direction– the eastern clans spent most of the game fighting amongst themselves.

    You should be able to carry out these two lines of advance sequentially, fighting only on one active front at a time, and advance quite rapidly.


    Going further afield

    Having secured a cluster of around ten south central provinces, you are now quite strong and probably the largest clan for the moment (you are supposed to blitz, remember). You can now slow down a little. You will have the economic strength to field a decent military, but your deceptively secure strategic position (your realm is less exposed than it looks) will mean you may not need one. I scrimped on my military and focused on my navy and the infrastructure in my capital and provinces with valuable specialisms.

    Where to expand next? You can conquer an additional 8-10 provinces before you become so large that you trigger realm divide. Where to expand is up to you: you could move to the north central areas, surrounding Kyoto: this would reduce your vulnerability to attack from your rather wide northern border but would create new eastern and western frontiers that would need to be garrisoned. Or you could push east, with the gold mine from Izu and the smithing of Sagami being particularly attractive. Ultimately, you could backfill eastern Honshu, so that by realm divide you only faced attack on one front - from the west. I did opportunistically pick up Izu from Hojo just as they were about to be wiped out. However, the rest of my expansion was rather ... eccentric... and while I will describe it in this guide, it is not recommended unless for fun (and what are you doing playing games for fun? this is serious business!).

    Go west? The diplomatic situation in my game was such that I decided not to start a war in the east for Sagami’s smithing bonuses. I was content to let the eastern factions fight amongst themselves - they were not bothering me and none was becoming pre-eminent. Instead, I went west - initially targeting the smithy in Bizen. Since Kyoto and a powerful central faction blocked my access to the west by land, I attacked following a naval landing. I then conquered the surrounding strip of coastal land: Bingo – with its valuable naval tradition specialism - Bitchen and Harima. This is not a recommended strategy, as I effectively split my realm, east and west, divided by Kyoto and some adjoining central provinces, ending up resembling Takeda or Imagawa's initial start point in the original STW. However, it was great fun to manage this messy situation and the fact that I could do it with little trouble is testament to how secure Oda should be after it controls around 10 central provinces.

    Conquer Kyushu? I got to realm divide by expanding around Bizen and then starting a third isolated part of the realm on Kyushu. Spurred by a mission from the Shogunate to combat Christians, I invaded the former Shimazu homeland of Satsuma. However, I also wanted to secure a naval base near to my valuable western trade nodes (naval battles deplete your crew and so require returns to port to retrain). Again, I would not necessarily recommend this approach – it is more sensible to expand from your central borders and not create a 3rd, 4th and 5th front so far from home. However, moving into Kyushu is not necessarily a bad move, as – being a relatively small island – you can expand without opening up extra vulnerabilities and without encountering the more powerful clans that have emerged in Honshu. One thing I learnt, however, was that the smithing bonuses in Bizen and Shimazu will not help your central homelands around Owari – the distances are too great to be moving troops from one to the other. Naval tradition provinces and Nanban trade centers do provide generalised benefits to your lands, however, as fleets are more mobile than armies.


    Realm divide

    Realm divide will occur when you have around 18-20 provinces. However, you should be able to manage this by halting your expansion until you are ready. Once RD hits, expect to be at war with all other clans except those you have specially cultivated through diplomacy. Having at least one ally who stays with you through RD is economically valuable, as you will retain a trade partner. I recommend Chosukabe to be the ally to cultivate to stay with you after RD. They are likely to militarily strong, so that expanding into Shikoku is unappetising. But they are confined to that island and so are less of a threat and unlikely to get into conflict with you over border tensions. Use everything in your power to strengthen relations with your special ally (or allies): marriage; regular gifts of koku per turn; fighting their enemies etc. You want to be on the best possible terms with them prior to RD (e.g. +200 relations). In my game, this diplomatic charm offensive was successful and Chosukabe only turned on me right at the end of the game, when it was far too late for them to stop my victory.

    To prepare for RD, accumulate a large war chest - anything from 100k to 200k. You can do this by capturing almost all trade nodes and maintaining a small military. Invest in infrastructure prior to RD, maximising farm development and specialising provinces so that you do not have to spend significant money on infrastructure after everything goes to hell.

    After RD, you should still able to maintain my control of the trade nodes and pay for your military (say, around 3-4 field armies and 2 naval fleets). Your war chest will shrink due to military recruitment, but should be sufficient. RD inevitably leads to further expansion and some rationalisation of your boundaries, so that your income will probably rise by more than the cost of any extra forces needed to defend your new borders.

    Once the shock of being at war with everyone subsumed, the reality of life post-RD can be far less threatening than the sea of red on the mini-map implies. In my game, I faced only minor threats from the north (via Mino) and east (via Suruga/Izu). The stronger eastern clans never got their acts together to mount a serious threat. I suspect they were either too preoccupied with infighting or too weakened by it in the past. The Kyushu and western Honshu clans were already too weak to be a threat following my earlier expansion there prior to RD. That left only a strong north central faction (Asina) in my game with around 4 full stacks in one border province as a significant threat. However, they did not move fast or aggressively enough, so I was able to dismember them stack by stack with a strong field army of mainly Samurai using a night fighting general. The Shogunate also fell apart, venturing its powerful army in a field battle and thus saving me from a costly siege.

    After that, the end of my game was relatively anti-climactic. I tended to vassalise clans I conquered – those conquered post-RD do not suffer from the diplomatic penalty of RD and thus provide valuable trade partners. My ally Chosukabe did turn on me – in a rather interesting way: declaring war on my vassals. The first time, I broke my abandoned my vassal to try to save the alliance but soon found out this was a mistake. I suffered a diplomatic penalty for not honouring my obligations, lost a province that counted towards my victory conditions and did nothing to appease the Chosukabe who tried the same trick the next turn. However, the end of the alliance was insignificant, as Chosukabe never broke out of Shikoku.


    TACTICAL TIPS: STALIN WAS RIGHT

    Given Oda’s bonuses for Ashigaru, one can rely on mainly peasant armies for most of the game prior to RD. Yari ashigaru are good enough to counter enemy cavalry and to be the bulk of your mainline in the early to mid game. Likewise, bow ashigaru are good enough for missile duels. Season your peasant armies with some katana samurai, to cut through enemy yaris and counter their elites, and with a few cavalry, primarily to chase routers and perhaps scatter archers. A typical mid-game stack might be one general, two cavalry, 3-4 katana, 5-6 bow ashigaru, 6+ yari ashigaru. If one is relying heavily on ashigaru, one must rely on quantity: field full stack armies or at least one equal in size to your enemies. And get used to recruiting replacements: you will not be cultivating an experienced core; your peasants will not live long enough. Oda exemplify Stalin’s dictum of war: “quantity has a quality all of its own”.

    Using only one or two generals for all your battles will give them the command stars necessary to bolster the morale of your ashigaru. This may be particularly important if your early blitz gives way to a rather long tranquil mid-game (as mine did) as the more warmongering AI generals will be accumulating command stars rapidly from their squabbles. I never found my ashigaru’s morale insufficient or even an issue – they never routed unless the battle was lost. Specialising your generals to be ashigaru commanders is also attractive, although ultimately, I would not recommend it. It precludes getting the combination of night fighter and siege expert traits that I believe are more useful for the end game – to deal with multiple stacks of enemies and to avoid protracted sieges. Infantry general is a highly recommended trait, however: stand and fight works very well with a peasant heavy army. I generally went for the strategist skills - you want to blitz and follow Bedford Forrest's dictum "Get there firstest with the mostest". I eventually came to foresake the bushido research bonuses: you don't need them - ashigaru are not high tech!

    Ashigaru armies will generally perform well in siege assaults and defences. In assaults, you can rely on your many bow ashigaru to whittle down the defenders (the game does not give them sufficient protection, imo). Often you can win bloodless victories this way against lightly defended castles. Where the defenders cannot simply be shot to death, you can usually sucker them into defending one wall and sneaking over another (e.g. place your general against the “feint” wall and hide some other units against an opposite one; often the AI will fixate on the feint, allowing you to get in unopposed from the back). In defence, the natural advantages to missiles and the protection of the walls in melee will mean that the enemy samurai cannot cut through your peasants as they would in a field battle.

    Where Ashigaru armies will suffer is in attacking very heavily defended castles or in fighting equal numbers of higher quality men in the field. These situations must simply be avoided. Starve out settlements if they have more than half a stack of defenders. Recruit your own samurai if you are facing full stack samurai armies, or fall back on your castle walls. You could sacrifice ashigaru armies in waves (e.g. using autoresolves), but this is taking Stalin's motto to inelegant extremes.

    By the end game, your armies will start to resemble those you would field with other factions, becoming more samurai heavy. In my game, I relied on bow ashigaru throughout, but subsequent testing has convinced me that bow samurai and particularly monks would be worthwhile for your late game field armies:

    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...s-worth-it-etc)

    Eventually, naginata samurai should replace yari ashigaru as your frontline. Katana samurai too vulnerable to the massed archers the AI fields in the end game, and to cavalry, to be frontline infantry. They are good in the early game as your shock infantry, but naginata can fulfil this duty almost as well while being better in other roles. Cavalry become more important as the game goes on to limit losses against archer heavy armies (you will be more reluctant to lose samurai to their archers than you were to sacrifice ashigaru) and to induce a quick morale collapse by striking from the rear.


    ODA, THE NAVAL SUPERPOWER?

    Starting in the south centre of the map, Oda is the clan furthest from the trade nodes and is also rather far from any provinces with the naval tradition specialism. However, having seen the value of these nodes in my English ETW campaigns, I decided to make a play for them regardless. While the AI moves quickly to secure the trade nodes in ETW, they seem rather lackadaisical in STW2, so Oda can grab the majority peacefully. In the calm mid-game prior to RD, slowly build up your naval forces, to fend off pirates and protect the trade nodes.

    Wanting to contest for naval dominance was the reason I chose to play on normal battle difficulty. On higher battle difficulties player navies are very disadvantaged – the slight morale edge the AI gets is enough to reliably rout your ships in even match ups. [By contrast, in field battles, high command generals can avoid premature routs and smart player tactics can still win the day.]

    I would recommend building one or two generals up to be admirals, if possible. However, this will have to be done by getting experience via land battles as sea battles do not seem to provide enough XP to sufficiently level up your generals. Given that you will probably want just one or two generals to fight almost all your land battles, it may be hard to groom admirals. Having prospective admirals gain XP by reinforcing your main army is a possible solution. If you do use admirals, keep an eye on your flagship in battle and keep it safe.

    Ensuring naval superiority becomes trivial when you are able to recruit cannon bunes. These units devastate traditional Japanese ships in a completely overpowered way. (This is presumably realistic: cannon vs ancient weapons sounds like a no contest.) Watching them in action reminded me of the first ironclads in the American Civil war, tearing apart traditional wooden ships with impunity. You can only recruit two – but one for a west fleet and one for an east fleet, is quite sufficient for dominance. Two in a stack is overkill. One caveat: I never encountered European style ships with cannon. (In the end game, I conquered a nanban centre and built European style trade ships, but never needed them for naval superiority).

    If you do go for the trade routes, it makes sense to max out the naval techs. The AI typically retreats prior to disadvantageous naval battles, leaving your fleet too slow to catch them or even spot where they fled to. Getting bonuses to naval movement from tech makes it much less frustrating to hunt down and destroy enemy fleets. Getting fire arrows early from research is also a priority for naval battles – they turn bow ships from being minor annoyances to being extremely potent.


    MAKE LOVE, NOT WAR

    In the mid-game prior to RD, you are free to concentrate on less warlike areas such as the economy, diplomacy and research. There are relatively few Oda-specific tips I would give on these matters.

    In terms of province development, playing as Oda led me to write a short guide to province specialisation in STW2 in general:

    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...specialisation

    Oda specifically is well placed to receive most province bonuses – particularly for ninjas and monks. A notable exception are craft specialist provinces, which are all rather far from Owari. This is unfortunate, as Oda are likely to depend heavily on archers rather than high quality melee units. The ninja provinces allow you quite early access to recruit rank 4 ninjas and geishas, giving you a powerful edge in dealing with rival agents. They can also be developed to provide valuable economic benefits from an Infamous Mizu Shobai District and the sake dens. With access to two Hallowed Ground provinces, one should be used for a Fortified Monastery, supplying devastating long ranged bow monks as well as naginata monks whose war cry makes them useful shock units to break enemy flanks. The other should be the site of Great Shine, giving a large +5 morale boost to ashigaru recruited there. High ranked monks will be especially useful if you wish to conquer Kyushu – the Buddhist rebellions they can easily spark will be extremely difficult for Christian clans to counter.

    In my game, my most important provinces were:

    1. Owari, as my capital, producing two units a turn
    2. Bizen, as a smith province, being my main source of high quality Samurai
    3. Suruga for my Confucian academy
    4. Izu for its gold mine
    5. Kii, a second cash cow after Izu, for its rich farm land and for my Infamous Mizu Shobai district
    6. Bingo for my pirate fortress and naval recruitment

    Most other provinces, I left relatively undeveloped except for farms and level 1 markets. Mikawa is nice for cavalry recruitment, but I regard the charge bonus as rather underpowered and anyway did not rely heavily on cavalry (often having only a couple in a full stack).

    For research, it makes sense for Oda to go down the path of the spear – there are no sword or cavalry ashigaru. Heaven and earth, for more ammunition and encampments, is also priority. I recommend a fairly eclectic approach to research – dabbling in both chi and bushido trees, as explained here:

    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053295224

    Various builds for general and agent skills that I explored during my Oda campaign are sketched here:
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...int-strategies


    VERDICT: BEST TW CAMPAIGN EVER

    The campaign I based this guide on was the most fun SP campaign I have played in a TW game. Oda provides is a fun starting faction with lots of freedom and possibilities. You are able to expand centre, west or east, as you like. Despite the distances involved, you can even make a play for Kyushu and/or the trade nodes, as I did. Contrary to received wisdom it is not a particularly hard faction to play, at least after the first few turns on normal difficulty as its central position is more defensible than it appears. The Ashigaru specialism is very helpful in the early game but need not prevent you from recruiting the more powerful Samurai units later when you can afford them (and will need them to go toe to toe with the full stacks of developed factions).
    Last edited by econ21; 06-16-2011 at 14:06.

  3. #3
    Bureaucratically Efficient Senior Member TinCow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oda guides, hints and tips

    In general, I agree with everything that econ21 said, but if you have the Ikko-Ikki DLC you will find the Oda campaign to be significantly more difficult. When I was playing as Oda (Legendary), the Ikko-Ikki moved strongly down into the "south central bulge" right from the start of the game, and they became my most dangerous enemy. They threw stack after stack at Owari and Mino. I developed a policy of defending those provinces with one main army (led by my daimyo), while a second army captured the "south-central coastal corridor" as per econ21's recommendation. This was difficult, and I lost Mino several times before the southern conquest was complete. Once the south was secure, I did my best to move into the "south central bulge", but was simply being hammered too hard by too many factions in that area. I eventually lost my main army, at which point I became defenseless and stopped playing the campaign.

    While I did not win the campaign, I think the same strategy could work again under different circumstances. One of my main problems was repeatedly losing Mino. Two of these losses were while upgrades of the castle were under construction, and the loss of those funds and the improved defenses that would have resulted from them made my defense in that area a lot harder. Better army management around Owari and Mino would likely have rectified this situation.

    In addition, the Ikko-Ikki DLC also adds the Ikko religion as a significant problem for the Oda. The spread of the religion to your provinces is not itself a significant obstacle, but once the Ikko capture a province it quickly converts. Thus, taking provinces from the Ikko becomes difficult. If the Ikko-Ikki get into the "south central bulge", this causes a huge problem, because the area is only easy to control once it is all conquered. While conquest is underway, individual provinces can be very vulnerable. Oda's early-game poverty makes it difficult to afford additional units for purely garrison purposes, so the Ikko religious roadblocks force your armies to maintain order for longer than you would wish and slows down your progress. The number of monks needed to counteract the religious roadblock would be difficult to field in the early game due to the need to devote castle slots to markets simply to keep the armies running.

    To counteract this problem with the Ikko-Ikki, on a second playthrough I would attempt to keep them out of the "south central bulge" altogether. They do not start there, and only get there by taking Omi from the Asai Clan. In my game, I let the Ikko and the Asai fight each other, while I focused on my own consolidation and southern coastal expansion. In retrospect, this was a bad idea. It would be better to ally with the Asai and help them fight the Ikko, even at the expense of slower development and expansion. Doing this would hopefully keep the Ikko out of the area altogether, and make the mid-game a lot easier.
    Last edited by TinCow; 06-16-2011 at 20:41.


  4. #4

    Default Re: Oda guides, hints and tips

    Useful guide.

    This was actually the first TW game I've played (and I've played every one except Empire since STW1) where Hard really means Hard.

    Every other game I've started off at VH/VH and after a few false starts have won with almost every faction - the only exception I can remember is Austria in NTW which would always be swamped by hordes of enemies attacking from all sides.

    The Oda may STW2's Austria - strategic position which makes it hard to expand beyond a handful of provinces without ending up at war with everyone on the map, too far from trade nodes and too resource-strapped to build a proper navy and AFAICS lacking distinctive late game elite units (though this is less of an issue in STW2 admittedly).

    Anyway I've tried at least half a dozen campaigns at Hard and always been destroyed before the mid 1550s - the nearest I got to success was when I did follow the south and then east expansion axis to destroy the Imagawa but that just resulted in my being piled onto by Hojo and Takeda from the east and a whole bunch of minor clans from the west.

    Vassalising rather than destroying Tokugawa led to an interesting turtle campaign - they went off and conquered the Imagawa and left me free to build stuff in Owari and send out trade ships - I managed to build up my income and a good set of dojos rapidly but came unstuck when I got 'a take an Ikko-Ikki province' mission - taking Echizen eventually embroiled me with every clan in the centre of the map.

    Even at hard I have noticed that the Saito can be also peace treatied and vassalised immediately which does free up forces for a couple of turns to focus on the Tokugawa - but they then quickly get destroyed by the Hattori who are much more dangerous enemies.

    So at hard every strategy seems to fail - blitzing makes you too many enemies too fast, turtling and surrounding yourselves with vassals and allies just seems to avert disaster for a few more turns.

    Which is I suppose good campaign design and AI - certainly better than I expected - although so far I am still not impressed by the battlefield AI.
    Last edited by Jacobin; 07-02-2011 at 11:42.

  5. #5
    Member Member Jarmam's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oda guides, hints and tips

    Puncturing the Myth - the Oda Legendary Long/Domination cakewalk campaign


    It seems to be a general consensus that Oda is either fairly hard or really hard, and given that I feel the exact opposite (only Chosokabe is easier) I've updated and clarified a post I once made in an attempt to make a simple-to-execute strategy guide on how to dominate with Oda in a fairly easy manner. It involves low teching, no ricing, no fleets, low diplomacy and a lot of casualties hopefully resulting in a quick win without too much trouble.

    The basic ideology behind the approach is this:
    Since you start in a barren wasteland of mediocre to weak provinces (except your capitol) and hostile, very aggressive neighbors (Ikko and Hattori seem to hate everyone in every campaign) there is little sense in attempting a Choso/Hojo/Shimazu ricing-style of building up a solid infrastructure and slowly creeping forward with solid development until you snap-rush up to whereever the narrowest choke (like with Shimazu to Buzen province, el oh el) is and staying there for 40 turns building up the 2-3 deathballs to go to Divide and beyond. The way of the peasant will put this approach to shame (unless you're biased towards lategame deathballs, you Shimazu dog.

    Oda is the faction with the biggest beard, the Ax'iest of the Axe, and is all about aggression from turn 1 and never (rarely) looking back. Your Ashigaru are so stupidly powerful that you should have taken out Tokugawa, Saito and have Imagawa on 1 province in turn 8 (6-7 if you're better than me at not losing troops needlessly and can tolerate a revolt). And since you have no need for a strong infrastructure to support your dirt cheap easily-replenishable troops you can just keep going. These concepts will dictate the strategy presented in every aspect.

    Ill start out by outlining the basic structure of our strategy and what makes it work. I have drafted a detailed guide on the mythical first 5-8 turns that seem to give a lot of people problems in the post after this one.

    Arts:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Let us start at the beginning - turn 0. What we want to accomplish is a win (40+ provinces) in 80-90 turns. This means that everything we do, from building (or not building) infrastructure, to recruiting troops, to teching Arts, to waging war has to align to this philosophy. Everything you do has to be lean and crisp in the sense that it makes sense in the overall strategy. We cut away everything unnecessary to get what we require so much faster. Nowhere is this more apparent than in the Arts.

    Start with researching all the Chi arts you'll need - this means Way of Chi and Todufoken. Thats all the Chi Arts you'll need from now 'till the 40 province-mark. I used to also get Equal Fields, but this is a colossal flaw and is wholeheartedly suggested to cut out. Tax Reform is much better, and since Tax Reform is expendable (yes it is strong, very strong, but as Oda it is skippable) you can rush for Heaven and Earth - supplementing Yari+Bow Ashi core armies perfectly - then get Way of the Spear if you wish. Joking aside, we do not get Way of the Spear as it is a complete waste of 7 turns. 1 xp for your Yaris will translate into roughly 15 Katana kills (xp ranks get exponentially harder to get so the first rank is naturally the weakest) and the 1 unit you get in reward is an insult. Cancel this mission in turn 1 and forget it exists, it will never help you. All of this builds up to our midgame plan, which is to rush Gunpowder Mastery absurdly fast. We cut everything that isnt needed or worth our time to get this Art. Even Zen. Leave an inexperienced metsuke or yari troop in those 1-invasionresistant provinces and save the 3 turns to get your real Arts faster - your daimyo's honor will eventually do Zen's job in those provinces. You want Gunpowder Mastery and you want it fast. We only grab the Arts that are so efficient and fast to research that skipping them would be silly. This means WoC->Todufoken->Bushido->SoD->HaE->SoA->AbF->5 Elements->Gunpowder Mastery. Why this ordering is my preferred I shall elaborate in the Army Guide


    Why And How It Works:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    In the first 15 or so turns (approx) your units are so much stronger than anyone else's that you can just roll through the south while turtling in the north in Saito's town and your main. Additionally, your core units (yari and bow ashis) are so cheap in cost and upkeep that you can rally stacks of armies in a matter of a few years. You are independant of structures, arts and province specialities. Every single unit in your army is quick to replenish and cheap+easy to replace.

    The strategy is this: Attack attack attack. Ideally you will reach Hojo/Takeda (thus eliminating Imagawa) in 10-12 turns while having gotten rid of Saito in the north and possibly already started clashing with Hattori and/or Ikko. If you can, seek allies beyond these clans. The AI will gladly ally with you if it feels threatened on its existence by the clans you're at war with, and will forgive your daimyo for calling their troops a bunch of field-work no-good squabblers represented in the -20 rep trait.

    This Gunpowder Mastery-rush works primarily due to these factors:
    The reason we can take 2 Chi Arts and never consider any of them again is fairly simple: We dont need Merchant Guilds. We dont need Terrace Farming. We dont need Monasteries. We dont need Criminal Syndicates (or even Gambling Halls). There is no money for any of this, and our troops cost such a small amount of upkeep that you're much better off just rushing for more troop stacks than trying to develop real infrastructure. Developing economy with Oda is like rushing Bow Arts as Date - it's counterintuitive and goes against the flow and strength of the faction. Also, remember that provinces encourage war with the enemy - but more units discourages him. Having 4 stacks in turn 30 will make even the most aggravated AI more hesitant to wage war and when we aim at winning before turn 90 every turn counts.
    The reason we dont upgrade Way of the Spear or any direct unit upgrade before Attack by Fire is because its worthless. Ashigaru benefit the least from these upgrades, and they can hold their own well enough that we dont need to invest in them. Remember, researching Arts is an investment of time (which is quite a finite resource). Any choice is a loss of something else. And there is no choice to trump just getting our Rifles fast. The only upgrade you'll miss is Form and you can get that after Gunpowder Mastery.

    I would try to manage the Imagawa-front more carefully as any province you take beyond the river will open you up for backstabs from Takeda or Hojo - you will need 2 full stacks to take care of both of them - but you need 2 (or even 3) stacks absolutely asap in the west since Hattori and Ikko are much deadlier and more important enemies than Takeda and Hojo (heck, trade and ally with the east if you can). Hattori's ninja provinces are very hard to assault since they're spread out and lack roads to connect them quickly until Hatakeyama's provinces, but once the 5-6 provinces south of Kyoto are secure it becomes much simpler to defend and the income bonus from Burakumin villages will make it laughably easy. And as anything with Oda: The sooner you try to conquer something the easier it is. So prioritize this front.

    Once this area is secured you might want to consider stalling for your Matchlocks. Takeda and Hojo should either be trusted allies or eradicated (preferably you have Hojo's 2 provinces as both are excellent to hold) and Hattori should be gone with Ikko to follow. This is the one period of time where I would consider stalling for Matchlocks. If you trigger Divide before Gunpowder Mastery you risk getting into a world of pain. Once you have them, though, I'd blast east, west and whatnot with a reckless pace.


    Diplomacy and construction
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    I strongly suggest you search out an alliance with Kiso as soon as possible. Kiso is usally dependable to sit on his 1 town and trade with you while being a buffer to the east and the rampaging Takeda. The fewer fronts you have in the earlygame the better (this will lose importance later). This is why going nuts towards the south in the first 15 turns is completely acceptable and even encouraged, since it opens up no new fronts to protect. You can also ally with the friendly folk in the West, but be warned that 9 games out of 10 these guys will be trampled in seconds by Hattori and you must go to war on their behalf (and thus not when you want to) or you will suffer Dishonoring Treaties which will be punitive when coupled with the -20 diplomacy from your rude daimyo.

    Developing your cities is straightforward enough: Don't build anything but Markets and Sake Dens. 1:1 until you reach 5 Sake Dens, then only Markets. Dont upgrade your forts - ever. If you have food to spare this goes into upgrading Rice Exhanges in your rich provinces (as these can be equipped with a r4-r5 Metsuke in the midgame to produce breathtaking profit). Never upgrade the Sake Dens, never upgrade your Ports. Simply put there is no way this can ever earn enough income to warrant its cost - and even if it could we need the money for units now and not for floating 30.000 koku later. In fact, the Sake Dens exist solely to keep order in the permament-1-resistance-to-invaders-provinces (saving us 59/turn in upkeep) and to field Ninja (absolutely critical for this strategy).
    A noteworthy exception would be in the cities that you choose to develop, should you decide to use a deathball-stack (you wont have time or resources for more than one). In that case I would get a Fortress in such cities to speed up production and leave room for Encampments->your preferred upgrade. An obvious example would be Ikko's two cities (notice that Hunting Lodges and +acc province specialities affect gunpowder units) or Hojo's capitol.


    Generals
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    One of the reasons why this is so effective is the experience system. Your units will skyrocket to xp5 or better in no time, but more importantly your generals will accumulate massive amounts of xp in no time. Expect to field at least 4 r4 generals within 40 turns, and probably 2-3 r6 generals by the end of turn 80. This ties in nicely with our overall structure. In no time you will have general access to Stand and Fight, effectively making your Ashigaru fight like Samurai for less than 1/3 the cost. As a bonus, at r5 you can upgrade the +4 morale to Ashigaru, which I strongly recommend. Both rifles and Fire Bombs adversily affect your own morale, so the +4 morale is never wasted. We outlast and break - if you want to steamroll and grind the enemy ranks down with superior quality melee, Shimazu, Uesugi or Date is probably what you're looking for.


    Army guide
    Early:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Start with armies of 1:1 ashi yari to ashi bow. Dont go higher than 6 archers - their purpose is to defend newly taken castles and forcing engagements with your superior Yari Ashis, not to win the battle themselves. Just stack out with yari ashis. In the first 20 or so turns (unless you're extremly unfortunate with a 10+ katana army in turn 20 - it can happen) this army composition will wreck absolutely anything the enemy throws at you. However once Samurai cores become more abundant we need something to back up our Yaris - this is why we take Strategy of Attack after Heaven and Earth - unlocking Fire Bomb Throwers. Add 2 Fire Bomb Throwers when you can - these replace 2 Yaris. FBTs require some babysitting and might take you a few battles to get used to, but they *wreck* morale and our biggest advantage is morale. We win by standing our ground. This is why I find FBTs complement the Oda battlefield strategy perfectly.

    Add cavalry as you wish. There are 2 places with cavalry specialization in close proximity to Oda's starting province, so you should be able to field upped Light Cavalry relatively easily if you prefer them with the charge bonus, I cant really tell the difference. We lack morale destroyers apart from FBTs and cavalry fit this perfectly - they also secure easy wins against otherwise frustrating Samurai/Ronin archer cores from Hattori, Ikko or Hatano. I have seen Hatano with a 14 Sam Archer army and it was nigh impossible to defeat outside forests with my Yari+Matchlock Ashigaru stack. Add however many you need - I personally prefer 3 cavalry units to support my general. This army will demolish anything that isnt a "Sword School in turn 6-stack" for a long time. Engaging is simple. Either clash in favourable terrain (like forests) and run him over if he has archer advantage, or exploit your archer advantage to pick holes in enemy melee before running him over. If melee is engaged and your FBTs didnt throw yet then toss those bombs into the melee. Your Ashigaru will thank you. Or they will fly. But we replenish faster than the Samurai they're locked in melee with.


    Late:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    I'd replace the Light Cavs with Yari Cav first (or Katanas if you prefer those - I actually am starting to like Katanas over Yaris more and more). Most importantly I'd phase out archers completely except 5+xp ones, and replace them with Matchloch Ashis - preferably from Echizen (Ikko's capitol), since they benefit a lot from the +10 acc on top of the +5 from a hunting lodge. 6 matchlocks per army is core. Dont get me wrong, you'll have at least 4 stacks by now and Matchlocks can come from anywhere, but prioritize making them in Echizen since you need the tech anyway for your pseudo-deathball + Arsenal bonus. This is our common stack core and what we will rebuild in a couple of turns, should one of our stacks suffer a massive defeat. You will lose battles and you will lose stacks, but as long as your general is alive its not a problem - advantage comes from fielding a new stack at the front in 3 turns. The reason we want Matchlocks is that our Yari Ashis simply cannot hold up with the enemy Katanas and Naginata anymore and our Bow Ashis, even with their xp8 bonuses, are struggling heavily against enemy archers and their arrows barely scratch the heavily armored Samurai cores anymore. But as the Heavy from TF2 has so wisely taught us - "I have yet to meet someone that can outsmart bullet"! Matchlocks will make minced meat of heavy infantry, heavy cavalry and even enemy samurai archers if they fight in a forest. If you're unsure on how to fight with Matchlocks in your army, I suggest searching for a few guides (Ill try and find some links for this guide) or ask away. It takes some finesse and gets significantly more effective with some micro but its not terribly difficult - just remember to shoot at angles and never directly into the melee as that will only ensure that your 30 remaining Yari Ashis will wonder where all their friends suddenly went. Its also almost always worth it to use ranked fire.

    As for deathballs, I'd say you only need a single pseudo-deathball army for Kyoto and to spearhead the western dominators (usually Hatano and Chosokabe+Shoni post-Divide). Ikko's and Hojo's old lands hold a smith which I'd use with an armory to get the +4 armor bonus (+5 is too expensive and requires trade or trade ships - ships are for Mori or Christians, trade is for Uesugi and our post-Divide vassals). Make Naginatas from this province to replace the Yari Ashis in your "deathball". Use Echizen to make your Gunsmith->Arsenal and get 6-8 Matchlock Samurai from there with the +15 acc (if you can get the +20 acc province structure... then you have Chonindo... why do you have Chonindo, you Chosokabe dog?). So instead of Ashi Matchlocks/Yaris and Light Cav, we have the upgraded version of each which is what our Arts and tech supplement perfectly + of course our trusted 2 FBTs. After this is done just use the provinces to churn out Ashigaru with the bonuses - Matchlock Ashigaru with +15 acc and Stand and Fight's reload bonus (all your 4-5 generals are at least r4 by now, preferably all r5 for the +4 morale) + arsenal bonus are monsters disguised as men. Try giving them Inspire for fun - preferably on a wall ^^ Yari Ashigaru with more armor than a vanilla Katana also fare decently well against archerfire, so remember to churn out of your +armor towns if you're not in a hurry with replenishing lost stacks.

    You dont have time for a second deathball. Its also not necessary. 5-6 self-replenishing stacks rampaging east and west will utterly dwarf 2-2½ strong stacks running from town to town to defend. It does require strong ninjas - from those Sake Dens you rushed 40 turns ago - to manage enemy stacks via sabbing (an ashi stack will not hold up against 2 enemies fielding 20 units each at the same time). Ninja are vital for scouting ahead to ensure you dont get sandwiched between 2 different enemy stacks and at sabotaging enemy stacks close to their friends, so that you may pick them off one at a time. They can also ensure that should the enemy throw a Samurai stack at you with a r4+ general, they might show up with a captain in command. If at any point you have 10 or more provinces, but you dont have 5 Ninja scouting, sabbin' and stabbin' away and 5 Metsuke either r4 in your rich towns or r1-3 at the front heading for r4, then for the love of your daimyo's daughter recruit them and get to work.

    Just field a couple of Yari Ashis and 3-4 Matchlock Ashis in any city you feel threatened in. The enemy will need either a full stack or some really insane troop quality to break Oda's rifled peasants behind walls. I have held off a r3 general with 10 Yari Samurai and 4 Bow Samurai with just Sam Retainers, 6 Matchlocks and 3 Yari Ashis with ridiculous ease. This makes holding multiple fronts in the midgame much simpler than with archer ashis.


    Now you're set. Take Kyoto while... laughing at him? (since you're not awesome and playing Tokugawa, and therefore cannot have a Geisha taking out all of Kyoto's generals for the sake of it). Then just take whatever the enemy gives you and 40 provinces roll in easily. Remember that Vassals count towards your provinces so making a few in the east to stall Date/whoever has Date's lands is fine. They also let you profit on all those trade goods you'll have by turn 70-80. Plus its nice to have "friends" post-Divide - just be warned that they seem very eager to stab you in the back after all these patches, so I would generally advise against having more than 2 with 1 province each.

    A couple of screenshots against 75+% Samurai armies using rifled peasants and highly ranked generals:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Click image for larger version. 

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    My general giving his usual encouragement
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    And they did
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    All so much easier when your troops do exactly what they're told
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    Ashigaru Matchlocks can dwarf even Uesugi Bow Warrior Monks in killcounts if given the opportunity
    Last edited by Jarmam; 11-09-2011 at 17:09. Reason: Moved the Opening Turns to its own post

  6. #6
    Member Member Jarmam's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oda guides, hints and tips

    The Start

    Turn 1-3
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Turn 1:
    The first thing you should do is demolish the Yari Dojo in your capitol. This building is entirely worthless and will never be used. We wont ever make Yari Samurai, and the Naginata we will produce in 50+ turns from now might as well get the +armor bonus available to us by then. You might be thinking of Long Yari Ashigaru, but if you are then I must crush that dream - Long Yari's cost twice the upkeep of regular Yaris, require more tech than Yari Samurai and have laughably poor stats. This unit might have its place in MP Battles, but in SP campaigns it is entirely worthless to the point of being an insult and should be ignored.
    Deal with your diplomacy. I advise an alliance with the blue west (Kitabakate or smth) clan as if he forces you into a war it will be with Hattori whom will go to war with you anyway.
    Now, normally I would advise that when attacking the rebel stack in your province you let some of the enemy troops run so that you may attack them again a 2nd time for the +15 xp to each of your generals. However, with Oda you don't have time to run after the rebels if you can avoid it, so crush them in the first battle - you will get plenty of xp for both your starting generals, do not worry about that. Remember that attacking with 1 general+army while the 2nd one reinforces (or vice versa) will provide both generals with the xp from the battle completely undiminished.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    An acceptable result of the battle. Notice how my Yari Samurai are still alive and kicking - a flaw in my play as this unit is being disbanded shortly

    Remember to research Way of Chi (we will get a Market in our capitol as it is rich and the earlier you get a Rice Exchange here the better).
    Upgrade your Farm
    Buy 2 Bow Ashigaru

    Turn 2

    Change your general's commission from War to Finance. The increased taxes with help you more, since recruiting peasants is cheap - its their upkeep and battlefield cluttering that makes them less useful than Samurai in larger numbers (but our Yaris cost 30% less upkeep and are about 20% more effective so this won't be a problem for a long while). Once your general reaches rank 4 you'll enjoy a 4% bonus to taxes - much much more important that war. I'd prioritize my highest ranked general to Finance, next two to supply/development (repairing sabotage and castles also gets cheaper from development-commissionaries, but supply might be more important depending on your current situation), and lastly Warfare.
    Recruit 2 Yari Ashigaru. If you do this before you switch commissions you'll get the 4% discount on these units, as well as the tax bonus next turn. Not exactly massive, but you never know when that gold might save you.

    Things just got real. At this point Tokugawa will move into your province with a fairly decently sized army. Of course we already dwarf his army completely and in a siege he has about 0% chance of winning, but you can do something a bit more fancy.
    First there is the "real" way of playing it, which is something like this
    Click image for larger version. 

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    A picture of turn 3 after Tokugawa's attack. My Daimyo was outside the castle to provoke Tokugawa to attack him where my garrison could assist me but Saito can't assist Tokugawa. Again this can be done much more seamlessly with significantly less casualties, but this is also perfectly acceptable. After this battle either disband your Yari Samurai or be thankful they died in battle instead of your Ashigaru. A single Yari Samurai costs the same in upkeep as 3 Yari Ashigaru, which is obviously not worth it

    There is a slightly more... dishonorable way of dealing with Tokugawa as shown in the Additions-post underneath this.

    Turn 3
    Hold off Tokugawa's assault in whatever way you prefer. Now we take the offensive.
    Send your daimyo with a sizable army (all but 1 or 2 units) towards Tokugawa. He is cripped and will fall easily, but Imagawa is not and Imagawa will instantly attack you after you conquer Tokugawa's province.
    Send your general with the remaining units north and take out Saito - if Saito against all odds has decided to create a small army, do not sweat it - just wait for your next production cycle and smash him with that in turn 4.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    You should look something like this

    With Saito's town you can now trade with half the map - or at least a lot of new people. Get trade agreements with everyone you can, even if they're certain to be your enemies in 4-5 turns. We benefit more from gold than they do through our cheap and efficient troops.
    Amongst others I offered Kiso a trade agreement and he didn't want it - he instead presented this option.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Why yes, I wouldn't mind that at all

    Recruit 2 more Yari Ashigaru in your capitol and start building your Market in your capitol.

    In the AI turn, Imagawa will come at you with usually 2 generals, 2 Bow Ashigaru and 3 Yari Ashigaru. Even in a broken castle this battle should be easily won with no unit casualties. Remember a unit with 20 people will have the same repression as a unit with 150, and rebels are your main concern in the early stages of rapid expansion.



    Turn 4-8
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Turn 4
    Fairly uneventful turn. Recruit Yari Ashigaru in all three provinces, totalling 7 (they're the cheaper unit and in open-field battle its more beneficial to have more melee units than to rely on missile troops at this stage). Fix whatever damage is done in your provinces to quelch rebellious tendencies and get a metsuke from Toku's market-capitol as he will greatly help with this for an upkeep of 0 and a steady 1xp/turn.
    Get a Sake Den in Saito's keep, its time to get ninja to scout out Ikko/Hattori

    Turn 5
    In my game, Tokugawa revolted in my new province due to destructive sabotage from Imagawa's 9 man strong "army" from his earlier attack. Chase and kill off Imagawa's broken army in turn 4 to prevent this.

    Quartermaster's report in this turn and the next should look something like this:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Come at me bros!

    Get a 2nd Metsuke from your capitol's market. Quelling unrest is by far the most important thing to do.
    Make 7 more units

    Turn 6
    The Toku-rebels assaulted my freshly repaired castle and with the reinforcing units from my capitol I lost only 139 man to Tokugawa's 500ish. More xp for my daimyo and time to gather my reinforcements with my main army.

    By now the Zerg of the Oda start should dawn upon you. The sheer number of units at your command both north and south will usually keep Ikko from declaring war yet, and even Hattori will likely target your allied Kitabatake over you. This gives you time to quell unrest and... get more units.

    Turn 7
    By now you should be able to quelch rebellion in Toku's capitol just with your metsuke, your castle and the units you recruit from it+your capitol. It'll take 2 turns to move there but 1 turn of unrest will only hurt your town's commerce which is an acceptable loss if it frees up units for your invasion force. This means its time to move southward to Imagawa's outlying province. You can reach it in 1 turn from Toku's capitol keep. It should be a joke to win this fight - if anything else just lay siege and he'll come out for you in the open, which is complete suicide for him.

    Hattori should have declared war on either you or your blue ally, and Ikko will most likely either do the same now or do it next turn. No problem, however, as your southern border is now completely secured with Imagawa on 1 province which you will take as soon as you can (turn 9 or 10, once unrest is under control in your new province). This allows you to divert all your recruitment towards the northern border and it shouldnt take long before you can take the offensive here. Just spit out more and more units and remember to prioritize Yaris over Bows - Bows are great at hurting enemy morale, creating holes in their melee ranks, sniping generals and defending freshly taken Keeps, but their effectiveness declines as they get more numerous and their upkeep is high - I would never go above 6 and never have more archers than Yaris in a stack.

    Turn 8
    Fight on! Hattori and Ikko are next on your to-do list.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    If your map looks something like this, you should be absolutely fine. The revolt in Toku's main kept me from assaulting Imagawa for a turn and he decided to move into the open, making it a walkover to take his keep in this turn. There is an alternative pic/map in the additions-post to show how different the map can look for everyone and yet similarly for you
    Last edited by Jarmam; 11-09-2011 at 17:23.

  7. #7
    Member Member Jarmam's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oda guides, hints and tips

    Additions and notes:

    The trollface-way of dealing with the southern invasion in turn 2
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Click image for larger version. 

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    This is where I position my daimyo after the battle against the rebels. In the "real" way of doing it I moved him next to my keep to lure Tokugawa to attack him. However, notice how he can attack the Tokugawa keep? Its currently defended by 45 Samurai Retainers, also known as a 95% win chance for a lone General
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Problem, Tokugawa?
    If a faction loses all provinces, it is removed from the game. All units in its last province become Rebels - all units outside their last province are removed from the game. Your daimyo just crushed Tokugawa's stack singlehandedly. Note that this method will make it a lot harder to deal with rebellions as you lose the +1 recruitment bonus from taking Toku's keep (it triggers next turn), and you take the keep with no units. Still... :)


    Some SSs from another campaign showing a different way the map might look at turn 8
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Alternative turn 8 diplomacy and map
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    Last edited by Jarmam; 11-08-2011 at 16:40.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Oda guides, hints and tips

    My normal tactic of beating larger armies, is to spear into some good spot, and "Castle Hug" to make them all just destroy themselves towards my walls. I've done this in many campaigns, and the AI does take the bait, every time, thinking it can win. Thus creating a good counter potential. Starting on the Oda campaign on VH/VH was no exception. I just built a few units, and Castle Hug (CH) after killing the rebels. They attacked so they got each other as reinforcements too, just the more fun.

    Screenshots of the CH
    Tokugawa and Saito attacks, and fails, thus creating an easy 2 new town catch with no defence. Leave army in Mikawa town to CH away the Imagawa assault

    Click to see large picture


    EDIT: I forgot to say; Well written and good pointers econ21. Now anyone can play Oda with great success ;)
    Last edited by Tixan; 11-20-2011 at 03:55.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Oda guides, hints and tips

    Thank you econ21. Your tips give a good outline of what to expect and overcome as Oda.
    The effect of the Ikko-Ikki DLC seems to make Owari and Mino vulnerable sooner. The Southern expansion is still possible but it generally has to feed itself; all builds in Owari/Mino stuck at home for the invasion.

    Jarmam I think your advice is applicable to all factions. Gunpowder is really that good! Oda was the first Christian Shogun I ever mananged and gunpowder was the key :)
    Ja-mata TosaInu

  10. #10
    Member Member Jarmam's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oda guides, hints and tips

    Quote Originally Posted by HopAlongBunny View Post
    Jarmam I think your advice is applicable to all factions. Gunpowder is really that good! Oda was the first Christian Shogun I ever mananged and gunpowder was the key :)
    I seriously doubt it, though I havent tested it except with Ikko (whose Ashigaru units admittedly are both insultingly weak and ludicrously expensive, their archer ashi is the weakest unit in the game). What makes it work for Oda is a combination of 99% independance of Chi arts, a ridiculously 33% cheaper 20+% more effective Yari Ashigaru unit, the ability to spit out almost 3 full stacks in 20 turns, the complete independance on allies (apart from Kiso, who is a trade partner with sprinkles) and the ability to instantly reinforce no matter where its required. If you try the same with, say, Date, I would predict that you'll fall apart to a Hatakeyama or purple (whatever their name is) samurai stack assault long before you get matchlock ashigaru - and even if you do get them I doubt that'll do you any good. No matter whom you trash, the next enemy will be better prepared, and with a 50% higher upkeep you simply cannot rely on Yari Ashigaru with any other faction. Not only are they weaker and rout faster, there is also a criminal lack of them. On top of that you will usually fight the two most fearsome alliances (being Hattori+friends and Takeda/Hojo/Imagawa) on the map right away as Oda, when they are the weakest and you are the strongest. If either alliance gets the 30+ provinces combined and you run into them with just ashigaru stacks they will break you in half in a bilisecond, rifles or no rifles.

    Is it possible to fight with Yari Ashis as your core with another faction for the entire game? Probably - but not anywhere near as easily. Even with someone like Uesugi I had to switch to Katanas much quicker than I wanted since monks take too long to get to. If I ever rely on Ashigaru its to stall for my real units teching in the main keeps. You cannot ever beat the upkeep efficiency of samurai with other factions and on Legendary upkeep is the destroyer of worlds for you. I use 8 No Dachis in my stacks as Date for this very reason and base my tactics around it - not because its the most fearsome but because its the cheapest for its effectiveness.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Oda guides, hints and tips

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarmam View Post
    I seriously doubt it, ...
    A well founded doubt as I learned. The only other faction that looked promising was Hojo; wall defence with rifles and bomb throwers was looking very nice; my computer blew up before I could see that one through though.
    Ja-mata TosaInu

  12. #12

    Default Re: Oda guides, hints and tips

    i use just the yari ashigaru and bow ashigaru to win the oda campaign....just like i use the militia hoplites to conquest rome 1.0...1 only hints,use mass number to flood your enemy,mostly wins...remember! flood through them and surround them,slaughter them...just like using mass zerglings flood through marines and zealots and dragoons in <STARCRAFT>...

    my flood tactics always wins,in rome 2 too(i use cheapest most cost effective germans club levy to conquer 1/4 of campaign map!!!then i get bore with club levy,i try other units,the spear wall are the best,coz insane defence skill and good armor and good attack skill,especially they are fast enough to chase hunt down archers!!germans good melee units only afraid archers!!!)...oda yari ashigaru is cheap and strong,so it is easy to use...

    like the <art of war of Sun Zi> said=when you outnumbered your enemy,surround them and slaughter them!!!

    wish everyone good hunting!enjoy your conquest!!!

    1 more ,in all warfare,cheap units rulezzzz!!!
    in napoleon,i use mass militia to spend enemy regulars(coz i create insanely strong economy with no cheats!!!i can afford 1000,000 militia at least!!!noone can stop me!!!same with shogun2 too!!!(1000,000 yari ashigaru!!!)),fun!!!total war is totally fun!!!i love "total overwhelming!!!"



    okok! here is the guide,try building your castle as high as possible at your <troops producing castles>,so you will always produce mostly each castle 2 to 3 units high level yari ashigaru,that is it! now you can produce mass high level yari ashigaru armies to flood your enemy samurai army oredi!!!
    Last edited by guineawolf; 05-15-2018 at 04:04.
    In all warfare,speed is the key!

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