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Thread: Hattori guides, hints and tips

  1. #1
    Liar and Trickster Senior Member Andres's Avatar
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    Default Hattori guides, hints and tips

    Please, post your strategies, hints and tips for playing with the Hattori clan here.
    Andres is our Lord and Master and could strike us down with thunderbolts or beer cans at any time. ~Askthepizzaguy

    Ja mata, TosaInu

  2. #2

    Default Re: Hattori guides, hints and tips

    This last game I decided to play as the Hattori has been very interesting. I decided to do something I don't normally do - I made vassals do my dirty work, and very early in the game at that (I tend not to make vassals until close or after the Divide). I don't like to tell anyone "this is how you do it", but rather I like to just tell the story of my game and let you take what you want out of it. Not every strategy is going to work for everyone. Soo.. the Hattori;

    I think the Hattori are probably -the best- clan in the game. Without a doubt, I believe they have the most useful and battle deciding ability out of all the clans; Kisho. Kisho will let a player deploy any number of units (some are exempt from this) on practically any point on the battle map - basically, your only restriction is that you can't put your units directly in the enemy starting zone... but you can get damn near on top of it. This has one extremely useful benefit;

    1. Being able to deploy practically anywhere is an amazing ability when you're on the defensive in a battle. This lets you choose the absolute best location to deploy, which is usually the highest and hardest to get to point. Again, when you're on the defensive, this is a friggan godsend. Aside from a defensive standpoint, it is also very useful for stealing defensive locations out from under the enemy. In quite a few games, I split my forces and deployed a few behind their starting location (in a tiny strip right next to the edge of the map that's just big enough to hold units) just to grab a location that may have been where the AI was going to move to. By the time they were able to move their army their and try to take out my dug in units, my main army arrived and cleaned them all up. I really can't even begin to stress enough how useful this ability is.

    Aside from that, every Hattori general has the ability to deploy at night time. Whether or not this makes some grand difference in battle is really hard for me to determine, but I've made liberal use of this ability during some difficult encounters, and I've always managed to come out on top, even if I was outnumbered in various ways (more samurai, more units, etc). Add in the Hattori bonus to Ninja's, and you have a positively great clan to play - Ninja's are extremely useful in their own right.

    So, to the game; I started out in my game rather slowly. I sent my starting ninja to harass Tsutei (sp?), hoping that they would declare war on me. I made a trade agreement with the Asai to hold them off and keep them from attacking me. It wasn't until about 3-4 years (about 12-16 turns) that the action started up for me. Asai was taken by the Ikko Ikki, and since I don't really like the Ikko Ikki because of their religious differences, I went in to take that province back. But, instead of keeping it for myself and worrying about wars on various sides, I decided to make Asai a vassal this early in the game. It took awhile for them to do anything, but it proved to be a major benefit later in the game. In the interim, I kept a small army (2 spear and bow ashigaru, and my other general) hidden in the trees to counter any armies that would come to take Asai again (and reinforce their castle, which is what I wanted). With my ninja on the offensive, I was able to take out generals and make the coming battles a lot easier for them. I was able to turn away and defeat several armies that made an attempt for the Asai, and I kept them alive.

    In the mean time, Tsutei went to war with Kitabakate. Unfortunately, they failed when they attacked them, and their army was pushed back. I took this opportunity to engage in war with the Tsutei, after talking to the Hayatekama (sp?) and bribing them to drop their alliance with the Tsutei. Tsutei was an easy victory, with their army away from their city and in tatters after their last battle with Kita. After this, I moved in on Kita.

    Asai was doing pretty well by this point in the game. They went up north towards and conquered the two provinces (the one on the left and right of the fork), and then moved on to the west. They practically steam-rolled half a dozen provinces, expanding almost to the edge of the island on the western side, just before Kyushu. This was where I received my first "warning" from the Shogunate - and I was still sitting on 3 provinces myself and I'm already getting warned about becoming to powerful. Things were a little quiet for me for awhile, with me letting Asai do all the dirty work.

    Eventually, Tokugawa, which had taken Oda and Saito, declared war on Asai. I joined in the battle and defeated their army that crossed into Asai's home province. After their first attempt, they sent another in, and were able to take it, but I quickly took it back for myself and defeated their armies again. I decided to move in on Tokugawa, sitting pretty on 4 provinces. Taking out both of Tokugawa's armies left them defenseless, so I moved in for the kill. Here, I decided to establish Oda as a vassal as well. This would keep the south-eastern clans from coming at me all at once. Tokugawa's home province had been taken by rebels, so I took their last province above Oda and that was game for them. By this point, I was worried that the clan next to me, Hayatekama, would declare war on me. Not that they had any reason to, but I wanted to keep this from happening at this juncture, so I established a marriage and trade agreement with them.

    Asai was taking a beating on the western front. They lost their big army after repeated engagements by Ouchi, so Asai was practically a sitting duck, even though they still had 6-7 provinces - they just had no army to defend it. However, Ouchi was taking their sweet time doing anything against the Asai, so I left them to fend for themselves awhile longer. Kikkawa joined the fight against Asai, so I declared war on them as well. Fortunately, Hayatekama were also at war with Kikkawa, so I took this opportunity to establish an alliance with them.

    The alliance with the Hayatekama only went so far though. They eventually declared war on Asai as well - which is really funny, because no one seemed to like the Asai, and they're also the primary reason I've been at war. Except for Tsutei, who I declared war on, every clan I was at war with up until this point had declared war on the Asai, and I went to their defense. At any rate, this was a very tough decision to make; stay allied with Hayatekama, or honor my vassalage with the Asai. The Asai were in a terrible position - they really had nothing going for them at this point, what with being attacked from practically all sides. Jinbo had recently taken the two provinces just north of Asai's home province (which I secured for myself), so I had taken those back to expand my power. Asai was still sitting on 6 provinces, but they were just in a bad position. Despite this, and despite the fact that Hayatekama would have probably been the better ally overall, I stuck with the Asai for one major reason - Hayatekama's armies were in the west attacking Kikkawa, and that meant their home provinces surrounding Kyoto were undefended. I swiftly took them and fortified the choke point and only way back in for them.

    After sitting still for awhile, Oda finally decided to start getting busy. Imagawa had expanded to their borders, and after having been at war with me for awhile (and then peace), they decided to declare war on the Oda, which I also got in on. However, it was not my intention to expand in that direction, so I decided to let Oda take those provinces. They steamrolled Imagawa down to one province and then ran into a brick wall (literally). Guarding Imagawa's last province were their allies; Takeda and Hojo, who had practically taken all of eastern Japan; one big Takeda stack, 2 big Hojo stacks, and whatever Imagawa had left. Oda's nice army of yari samurai got punked, and they quickly lost all of the territory they had just taken.

    This had me in a very difficult position. I wasn't necessarily friends with Takeda or Hojo, and I'm not sure how exactly they ended up in war with the Oda, but I didn't really want to anger them - having to worry about two-three fronts wasn't a very good thing. The question was simple; let these armies take the Oda, and then recapture it and establish them as a vassal again (if I could defeat the wave of ownage they had sent my way), or defend them. Oda had no army, just a few units sitting in their castle. Well, I decided to defend them, but I started with a bit of trickery first. Takeda had taken the two provinces Oda had previously secured, and thinking that if their alliance with the Hojo might "disappear", that would cause Hojo's armies to be thrown out of their lands. It seemed like a really good idea at the time, so I gave it a shot; I asked Takeda to cancel their alliance with Hojo in return for 1000 kokou and a trade agreement, and they actually agreed. I was thinking "sweet! this just made that horse pill easier to swallow". Unfortunately, Hojo armies didn't get kicked out... but it was still worth a shot. The alliance was quickly reestablished. I spoke with Oda and told them I would be declaring war on Takeda and Hojo - they, of course, loved this prospect.

    As usual, Takeda came in with a bunch of samurai cavalry, and mostly samurai infantry. I had a lot of ashigaru myself, albeit experienced, but still... That example I gave at the very beginning about deploying units behind the enemy and securing defensive positions quickly before they could? Yeah, this is where it all started. I knew they would have wanted to go for a position I found on the map - and it was just on the edge of their starting point. I deployed 2 ashigaru spears and 2 ashigaru bows right behind it so I could quickly grab and fortify it. The rest of my army I deployed just on the edge of their starting location, and it wasn't to far from that hill. They probably would have won if they didn't split their forces and do something altogether odd (unlike your units, your general can't kisho anywhere) - it looked like about 1/4 of his army ran to my generals last known position, even though I had ran him all the way to my line as quickly as possible. The first time I tried this battle, I made the mistake of having him walk there, and he was quickly taken out by some yari cavalry. I reloaded and tried it again (I mean, that was within the first couple minutes of the fight - do over!). This battle was rough, but I came out on top. I engaged a night battle and waited for the rain to keep Takeda from using flaming arrows with the half dozen samurai archers he had.

    So, Takeda went down, but I still had a bunch of Hojo to deal with. Tokugawa rebelled in Mikawa and took it, but Hojo quickly stomped them out of existence. Now I had two major Hojo armies coming at me, all samurai, and all experienced. It was not looking good for my army, despite my recent victory. I lost a lot of men, and it was going to take awhile to replenish. I had another small army nearby that I brought over and swapped dangerously hurt units in and out for to bolster my main army back up, as well as took my ashigaru matchlocks I had been slowly building - I had 3, and I wanted to give them a go. After some ninja warfare (assassinating a few generals, though he had like 5 in each army), this is where possibly the most crushing tactical victory I've ever had against a more powerful and experience army came from. I was so proud of this victory, I even saved the replay (which I attached). Thanks to Kisho training, I was able to position my army on probably the most useful vantage point I've ever seen in a map. Not to mention it was foggy, so the AI technically couldn't see where I was coming from at that point - he made the mistake of sitting tight until it was too late. My army had taken position on this fantastic point and literally rocked his army when it came funneling down on me.

    One army down, one to go. After swapping units in and out again, I made for his second army. I actually can't remember what happened in this one nearly as well (I'm still over-excited by how well that last battle worked out for me). Somehow, I won this fight as well, and pushed both Takeda and Hojo out of Oda's territory - they survived because I was there to help them. After these battles, Takeda, Hojo and Imagawa all requested peace, and rightly so; I just demolished their entire standing armies. This was a significant victory for my war effort, as it allowed me to start focusing on the west again where Asai was having a lot of trouble.

    **Addendum; I remembered what this fight was. I was on the defensive this time, preferring to wait as long as possible to replenish my troops instead of attacking outright. He came at me, and again, using kisho, I was able to choose the most preferable defensive location that allowed me to make good use of all of my available troops, including my matchlocks. This battle was a lot more costly, and not nearly as awesome as the first one, but it didn't matter in the long run, as I was able to get peace afterwards. These 3 battles have been the deciding fights of the game so far, and could have easily meant the end if I hadn't come out on top, or set me back a great deal.

    This is, unfortunately, where I stopped playing last night, but I felt my liberal use of vassals and tactics made this a game worth sharing with others. It's far from over, but it's looking to turn out considerably well for me. The Great Divide is just around the corner, but I have quite a few friendly clans on my side, as well as my two vassals, and enough trade going around to know I'll have a strong position even after it. We'll see what happens.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by Madae; 09-25-2011 at 21:46.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Hattori guides, hints and tips

    This game took a turn for the worst, unfortunately. I was able to seize the shogunate, but where my vassals did a lot for me early on, they failed to keep up and regain their momentum after a few poor decisions, which lead me to fighting on several different fronts. Coupled with the fact that I focused on technology I had no way of acquiring or keeping (silk for Geisha's), and my utter lack of a proper income later in the game, this spelled my doom. I simply was not making the money I needed to field the armies I required.

    If I could do anything different in this game, I would have held off on making Asai a vassal, as they caused the most problems for me by being a hostility magnet. If they had expanded into the east instead of the west, it wouldn't have been so bad, as every clan that they angered in the west and dragged me into war with kept me from grabbing the trade resources I needed. Oda was a great vassal though, and did their job very well holding off the east clans - angering Takeda/Hojo/Imagawa was far less of a concern, as they really only provided land (and one trade resource - iron).

    Also, if I wasn't on the ropes so early because of Asai, I would have made an attempt to capture Kyushu, since they're practically the doorway to mega-millions. In the next game I play, I will definitely hold off on making vassals until I'm in more of a solid position than just 2-3 provinces. With no way to control them, they can definitely cause some issues so early in the game.
    Last edited by Madae; 09-26-2011 at 17:17.

  4. #4
    Member Member Jarmam's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hattori guides, hints and tips

    I gotta say I have the exact diametrically opposite view on Hattori. They are, easily, far and away the single hardest legendary campaign I've played (and I only lack playing Mori and Hojo, both of which seem ludicrously easy compared to Hattori). Kisho on defense seems close to worthless for one simple reason: Any position on the 60% part of the map that's "your" part is easily obtainable without Kisho. Now thats not to say that its worthless, but its primarily effective on their Sniper-esque unit and Kisho Ninja, who already have that stat. The drawback lies in the absurdly inflated upkeep of every single Hattori Ashigaru and Samurai squad.

    I cannot write out anything even remotely close to a useful guide for the faction, but I would emphasize 1 thing if you're struggling anywhere near as much as I was at first with Hattori. There are units whom do not suffer from the upkeep drawback:
    Kisho Ninja
    Any Cavalry unit
    Any Warrior Monk unit

    So if you're playing Hattori in an attempt to field solid stacks of units that won't drain your coffers faster than your stupid 14 year old son does before he turns 16 and becomes useful in the field, then try to go for Monk/Cavalry/Ninja based armies with the Bandit-snipers and later Bow Warrior Monks from Echizen as support. Fire Arrows+Whistling Arrows+Blinding Grenades (I went for a Geisha-tech path so unlocked those fairly early and they turn Ninjas from meh-mediocre to terrifying)+Warcry+Cavalry charge = enemy dudes will start running. And they better, cuz if they dont then yours will. Fast.

    It's tough, but it's a lot of fun and a very interesting way to play the game in a new way. It's easily as different as playing an all-cavalry based Takeda domination campaign, except even harder as Takeda at least has halfway decent Ashigaru units to buffer their techswitch to Cavalry. You have 122 upkeep guys that are weaker than Oda's 45 upkeep guys and Ikko's nightmarishly efficient Loan Sword Ashigarus (be afraid. Be very afraid).

    Monks Monks Monks! And dudes in black!

  5. #5
    War Story Recorder Senior Member Maltz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hattori guides, hints and tips

    Just started a Hattori campaign (legendary domination). This is what I am trying to do - essentially to grab most of western Japan before Realm Divide:

    (1) Recruit as many Ashigaru as financially sustainable while expanding west to Settsu (Iga -> Yamato -> Kii -> Kawachi -> Settsu). Hire agents ASAP.

    (2) Use Settsu's port to ship the stack to northwest Kyushu and land on Hizen.

    (2) Maintain good relationships with any clan north and east of Iga. Trade and sell Military Access to them. Leave just a little army to defend the Kinki area and use Ninja and Monks to keep out potential enemies. But I am also prepared to evacuate out of Kinki area if the incoming invasion is overwhelming.

    (3) Use Satsuma and Bizen to produce advanced units.

    Advantages:

    - Early exotic goods (silk, incense, etc.)
    - Just one front to worry about - only two ashigaru army required before Realm Divide
    - Very steady expansion after Realm Divide

    I think overall it should provide a safer and more efficient campaign than the conventional style of taking the rich provinces of Kinki and fight the rest of Japan.

    EDIT: My campaign has completed. It turned out to be easier than expected - finished at Turn 60.
    Maybe I got lucky. How can I not be not lucky with Iga Ninjutsu?
    Here is the complete story!
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...tion-V5445)-10

  6. #6
    War Story Recorder Senior Member Maltz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hattori guides, hints and tips

    Hm... sorry I cannot find the detele option. So let me think about something to write...

    The name of your starting Ninja is Chisato (the main character of my story). In my next campaign I disposed Chisato, only to see another Chisato coming at me a few years later.
    So I gues the game recycles the names of the agents...

  7. #7
    Member Member edbenedict77's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hattori guides, hints and tips

    Hi Guys
    Did any of you have battle loading problems, when allies are involved in the battle, while playing as the Hattori? I am playing in N/N diff and presentlt Hatano are my allies and i find them right next to castle I am seiging, and they come as allies in my army assist panel , but when i launch the attack, loading meter freezes at the very beginning :( What can I do other than wait out the siege or wait for my allies to move away ??? :(
    I'm currntly playing as Milanese on H/H

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