Monks or Matchlocks – disarming the noob box ?

[Nigel]

The matchlock box, a highly defensive, range unit heavy square formation, has become known (and notorious) as the noobbox, because it appears to require relatively little skill to be effective with it. Some players hate it, some consider it a valid tactic, but there is a lot of discussion about it.


Here is a thought that occurred to me, when I was looking at the way the SP campaign works. At some point in the campaign players have to choose between embracing Christianity, which gives them access to matchlock guns but means that the monks don’t follow them anymore, or remaining traditional Buddhists, rejecting the “noisy and dirty” guns but retaining the support of the monks and their martial arts.

So what if we had a rule saying that a player cannot use monks and matchlocks in the same army, but has to make a choice for one of them?

Would it disarm the matchlock box to a point where it is no longer a controversial tactic?
Would it work well in tournaments?


I realize that many players would have to change their strategies for this, but would be interested to hear what people think about it.

[Papewaio]

It ain't monks per se that make the matchbox deadly. Its that you can't easily get into it. If they didn't have any spearman, then cav would have a chance with speed. A lot of the boxes though are 4 muskets, 4 spearman, lots of loan swords at the 10k level.

I think one of the better fixes though isn't nerfing matchlocks, but making their morale hit worse.

Worse for users getting shot in the back, particularly from friendly fire. If the morale hit was the same when used on your own troops as well as the opposition, then it would make it a lot harder to maintain squares. I think that is a more realistic option, I don't know too many armies that had high morale by shooting their troops... sure battlefield police exist, some countries used machine guns on their own troops when they retreated... but those armies were never what one would call cohesive enough to form much more then a mob let alone a square.

Mind you historically speaking mixed squares were very good against cav... they just didn't shoot their own troops, and the counter was cannons... the closest thing in Shogun 2 are firebombers and ninja... anyone have any success with these in attacking a square?

[Swoosh So]

I beat sabres nubbox with a rush army in the tosa cup, trouble is i took a rush army expecting it in game 3 and faced a balanced army which kicked my ass (i played crap also :) )

[AMP]

I beat sabres nubbox with a rush army in the tosa cup, trouble is i took a rush army expecting it in game 3 and faced a balanced army which kicked my ass (i played crap also :) )

err swoosh his army was almost the same in the 3rd round just didn't have it in a box like he did in the first round that you beat him

[jepp21]

It ain't monks per se that make the matchbox deadly. Its that you can't easily get into it. If they didn't have any spearman, then cav would have a chance with speed. A lot of the boxes though are 4 muskets, 4 spearman, lots of loan swords at the 10k level.

I think one of the better fixes though isn't nerfing matchlocks, but making their morale hit worse.

Worse for users getting shot in the back, particularly from friendly fire. If the morale hit was the same when used on your own troops as well as the opposition, then it would make it a lot harder to maintain squares. I think that is a more realistic option, I don't know too many armies that had high morale by shooting their troops... sure battlefield police exist, some countries used machine guns on their own troops when they retreated... but those armies were never what one would call cohesive enough to form much more then a mob let alone a square.

Mind you historically speaking mixed squares were very good against cav... they just didn't shoot their own troops, and the counter was cannons... the closest thing in Shogun 2 are firebombers and ninja... anyone have any success with these in attacking a square?

I used Fire Rockets and ninjas once..... even though is caused heavy damage, it didnt break the box. Is the "archery Dojo" were present, it would be a killer tactic againgst the box to use fire rockets.

Anyway, the Fire rocks and ninjas targeted their spearmen in the rear (i had a a great cav force), but they simply didnt make enough damage.

Actually. He attacked me. He moved his box forward and maintained the spear walls. He then beat my infantry with matchlocks and his own infantry. My cav didnt get the chance to charge in.

I think that making matchlocks affect morale on any troops they hit (even their own allies in battle), would make the box inneffective and more exposed when moving. Otherwise u should use a heavy bow army with some bow cav to beat the box.

I now got clan upgrade "increased range", on my BWM's (bow warrior monks), and its really good to use this upgrades againgst any campers^^

[perafilozof]

Mate don't even mention the name Tosa cup, that was a Dark Day for Total war games and fans...
Only thing people learned from that X, is how to cheese, exploit and ruin the game experience for everyone else...