Legendary difficulty

[Jacobin]

The one advantage of vassalising is that it lets you send a raiding half stack army off on a rampage through enemy territory - by vassalising you don't have to stop and get loyalty back up but can take a new province every turn (at least in the west and centre where few castles are more than one turn apart and the AI almost never remembers tto garrison them).

This worked very well for me as Oda - I had started off occupying provinces in the Owari to Suruga arc - and then I was attacked by endless stacks of Ikko Ikki - while I beat them off again and in siege battles my Owari army lost units faster than I could replace them and it was only a matter of time before they sent one stack too many.

So I scraped together a half stack of ashigaru, put them on a boat at Mikawa, landed them in Ise and then went on a rampage through Yamato, Iga and Omi vassalising each one in turn.

As it turned out that they only had those provinces plus Mino which they left undefended for one turn and Echizen which someone else took I destroyed the clan in about 5 turns without having to fight a single proper battle - every time it looked like I was going to get intercepted by an II stack I took the castle first and then it had to leave vassal territory.

In fact this sort of raid is the only safe way Oda can venture westwards in the early game - actually occupy Omi, Iga and Yamato and you'll be endlessly fighting to hold on to them.

And historically this was the grand strategy that Hideyoshi used to unite Japan - he didn't eliminate most of his rivals he just turned them into vassal states.

[Vladimir]

Destroy them completely by making them his friends? I'm getting bored with the game already. Maybe I'll try Legendary soon and stop autoresolving epic peasant armies.

[Vladimir]

Played a little as Hojo last night. I didn't know that slow motion was disabled too.

Did pretty well with trade and alliances. Took a few cities to the East and made a vassal. I forgot to discontinue a trade agreement first so the diplomatic hit resulted in loss of alliance and war with Takeda resulting in a net gain of a good chokepoint city. Diplomacy is one of the more interesting aspects of the game as I'm autoresolving most battles. I really enjoyed the combat in M2TW which is why I played it until the CD broke; not so much here. With this lousy reinforcement system I won't be bothered to fight the battles myself. Those little Asian men walk too fast and there's no way to properly manage a battle with the way things are set up.

Still, this should be a good challenge. The Hojo are in a good position and I'm making a lot of money from trade and need to hang out at nodes to wait for them to free up. Loosing my Iron supply was troubling but when you have MASSIVE STACKS OF PEASANTS it's not that important.

[Jarmam]

Work really cuts down your available game time, but with a fresh PC with more RAM I'm finally going to town on the Oda Legendary again.

A quick word on the recent DLC in regards to Legendary campaigns: It shouldnt really change anything. Im only really afraid of the Shimazu rifles/handcannons/Barretts (and Shimazu is destroyed in seconds in the campaign) and the Takeda YariKatanaCavalry (which is a joke to fight when you're a spear-based faction). Maybe the not-so-bulletproof Date Yaris? But if Date uses such expensive Yari units then Im just happy. I do however feel almost insulted at the "Long Yari" guys of Oda. You need more structures than for Yari Samurai... but they're so much worse - a pathetic excuse for an upgrade over the stock Ashis - and they cost twice the upkeep. Wow. Impossible to replenish, hardly an upgrade and to add insult to injury they're expensive as all hell. I would rather buy Yari Samurai in encampment towers while waiting for my Armory+Naginata Dojo to finish. What were they thinking? Well, about MP quickbattles I guess. But for SP I'd rather have 1 less upkeep vanilla Ashis than this. For SP the DLC only really made playing Chosokabe as a Christian a lot more effective since you dont sac your strongest unit for a religious switch anymore. I guess Choso was too hard before.

With that rant out of the way I'll open Pandora's Box and see if my hypothesis on effective Oda openings is correct. I'll be saving SSs and noting timings regularly. Hoping for either an 80 turn victory or a screenshot of me in Kyoto being hammered by 20 Hojo mortar squads. Not sure what would most priceless.

[frogbeastegg]

Now that the guide is out of the way, I am starting to consider a legendary campaign. Got a few other non-TW games to finish first. After that ...

I'm considering the Hojo and the Ikko-Ikki. Hojo appeal because their theme song goes "Money, money, money!", their starting lands allow defensive steady play, and they have smithing in one of their starting provinces. Ikko-Ikki because of the access to both upgraded armour and upgraded archer accuracy via their starting provinces, and also the slightly changed gameplay which accompanies the clan's unique traits. Does anyone have any comments on those two clans, or suggestions for another which I might enjoy? I have the Hattori and Ikko-Ikki DLC but not the Sengoku unit DLC, if that makes any difference.

I'm looking for a game which lets me play according to my own preferences. After 90+ hours of playing purely for research, I want to relax and have fun. I'm a slow-and-steady type of player. I hate rushing, I dislike rapid expansion. I like to build up my lands and economy. Waiting for - or creating - the ideal opportunity and then striking is the Way of the Frog. In terms of armies, I am looking forward to using units I want to and fighting in a style which I prefer - at long last I can get away from the parade of units added to my armies for testing reasons. That means a clan with the ability to quickly field a strong heavy infantry core and good archers is preferable, either through the clan bonuses or through easily obtained province bonuses. I do not want to play a game which involves a large naval component; that aspect of the game bores me silly and I've endured countless hours of it for the guide. Time to focus on mainly the land, cleanse the palette and hope it counters the exhaustion. No island clans, and no heavy focus on the trade nodes even though that will make my life harder than it need be. Nor do I want to convert to Christianity; the memory of ~30 hours of repeatedly doing the same few missionary, rebellion and conversion tests is far too strong.

[Arjos]

Hojo, might work, but Ikko forget it, as you stated you want a slow building game, with that religious difference you will have all your neighbours attacking you...

I completed on legendary so far with these: Oda, Date, Chosokabe...

Since you don't like naval and trade, options could be Hojo and Date...

Hojo have decent diplomacy, but Oda, Satomi or Satake will knock on your door if they build momentum...
Date have spacious land which buys time, but if you act too slow it gets nasty...

[frogbeastegg]

Date is a possibility I suppose. I hadn't considered them as I started a game with them on hard, mostly for the purpose of testing rapid expansion, pure infantry armies, causing unrest with Buddhist monks, and ways to boost research speed. Never did finish it, and can't really remember what I was planning other than that realm divide was close. If I can't pick that game back up, starting a new campaign with them shouldn't feel too repetitive. The spacious terrain added some extra challenge to the opening phases of that game. Hmm, it's a possibility to consider.

I don't mind a lot of defensive fighting, as long as I don't have to gather provinces quickly. I can do the rapid expansion '1 province every 1-2 turns' style of play, it's just not enjoyable for me. One province every 4 turns is better, or 2-3 provinces in a single year before a period of peace. Some clans need to be more aggressive than others in order to secure their initial position.

[Arjos]

Yeah, I pointed those as I reckon they have the "less aggressive" starting position, excluding the 2 island clans...
Uesugi and Takeda come close, but with Ikko DLC they'll have several stacks coming early on...

[Vladimir]

Date is by far my favorite and good for linear expansion. Once the north is yours you can pretty much take your time. The largest concern is that Takeda or another clan rapidly expands. Then you are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

[frogbeastegg]

The more I consider a new campaign, the more I wonder if Mori may be a possibility. They are in a nice position to play a land game if they wage a war of westward expansion. There are some nice provinces near their starting position. Since I will not choose to go after Kyushu and Shikoku, the naval aspect should be less prominent than you would expect with this clan. Maintaining two trade nodes will be reasonably effortless due to proximity. The stronger ships should allow me to auto-calc most of the battles if the clans on the smaller islands try to sail over, and I can 'park' the fleets at several strategic spots on the map with no need to shuffle them around.

Decisions, decisions.

It's a shame Chosokabe are on an island. If it weren't for the strong need to mess around with ships they would be well suited to the style of game I wish to play.

[Gregoshi]

Here are some interesting stats regarding Legendary difficulty from C.I.F (Intrepid Sidekick I think) over at the official forums:

Some folks here might be very very good at beating the game on Legendary but you are in a minority. Approximately 600 of all the players who play Shogun 2 have ever managed to win a Legendary Campaign. The greater majority of players who try Legendary Campaigns have been beaten by the 40th turn. There have been more than 100k of Legendary campaigns started

[Vladimir]

It's not that difficult, it's just not interesting. If you fight the battles and don't autoresolve you evolve simple or cheeseworthy tactics that take a lot of fun out of the game. It's more clickfest than chess game.

[Arjos]

Mori (I'm playing it atm) have a quite difficult starting position...
Amako will send stacks after stacks non-stop, Kikkawa will attack you very soon...
You can relay on Ouchi, and it's a must to build diplomacy with the Chosokabe...
Around 40/50+ turns you will be sandwitched between <insert christian clan from Kyushu> and <whoever prevails in the Kinai>, and if the Chosokabe don't like you that's a third front...

Btw the Chosokabe campaign I completed, fyi I didn't own any navy XD
Simply recruited ad hoc little ships for quick crossing and establishing a beachhead ^^
I didn't advise it, as you said you didn't like the islands, but I can assure you a navy isn't that important, all you need is a competent stack to protect Shikoku, and all the reast of your armies can go on rampage wherever they like...

[frogbeastegg]

That Mori campaign sounds like fun. Fighting to stave off annihilation is so much more engaging than fighting to collect provinces.

Chosokabe was the first clan I played in a campaign, way back in March. Although it was going successfully, I abandoned that game; TosaInu was also playing as the Chosokabe and we were comparing experiences. Continued play felt empty without that dialogue. IIRC I had to maintain an active, strong naval presence in that game. In my completed Shimazu campaign I definitely did. I suppose, like Mori, Chosokabe might be able to get away with minimal naval activity if I limit my interests carefully. Hmm.

I started with 2 possibilities and now I have 4 or 5. At this rate I shall be putting all of the clans into a hat to draw a random choice!

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Came pretty close with the Oda. The Uesugi campaign is insanely hard on legendary. I truely hate the coalition of Takeda, Hojo and Satomi that forms. Then the Ikko Ikki often get involved then if you manage to survive long enough you get to be destroyed by the Date. It drives me insane.

[Hamata]

Here are some interesting stats regarding Legendary difficulty from C.I.F (Intrepid Sidekick I think) over at the official forums:

indeed nice statistics

[frogbeastegg]

I managed to salvage my Date research campaign, and turn it into something enjoyable enough to finish. I don't want to play again as them so soon. The other clans (Hojo, Chosokabe, Mori) went into a random drawing. Chosokabe won the draw, which to be honest is the one I'm least interested in trying as I've already played half a campaign as them. Oh well, the gods of random have spoken. Chosokabe it is.

I started and got a few turns in. The only issue was adapting to the lack of pause or slo-mo in the battles. I find battles a bit on the fast side so I tend to use those two features a lot. Without them I was taking a lot more casualties than I needed to; the timing on critical manoeuvres like advancing infantry is different when things are at normal speed. I need to run a lot of practice custom battles, get used to controlling at normal speed. Picking those skills up as I go in legendary is proving too costly. Making that leap is the only part of legendary I'm worried about; I've won campaigns on the harder difficulties, but if I can't control the battles effectively I don't have much chance.

The other aspects of legendary battle mode are quite nifty. The lack of the radar means that you need to pay sharp attention to the enemy's movements. It's really weird not having the detailed tooltip for enemy units. I kind of miss seeing what they are up to (walking, running, firing, etc) however it's easy enough to tell from the animations, even at a distance. The restricted camera isn't nearly as claustrophobic as the one featured in STW and MTW; in several battles I didn't once ram face-first into it when issuing move orders.

Does anyone have any comments on how auto-resolve works on legendary? Does it still work fairly, or have the calculations been skewed towards the AI?

[TinCow]

Does anyone have any comments on how auto-resolve works on legendary? Does it still work fairly, or have the calculations been skewed towards the AI?

I didn't notice any difference between autoresolve on Legendary as opposed to any other difficulty. I use it a great deal when I play to mop up simple battles I know I will win (it's very good with giving a proper result when army strength is significantly skewed) or if I don't care about casualties (i.e., non-frontline army that can rest for a few turns after the auto). Be wary of using it if casualties might be important, as I've seen several Pyrrhic Victory results on major battles I was just feeling too lazy to fight. That can cause you serious problems if that army needs to be fighting again in the near future. Also, always remove units with about 15 or fewer men in them prior to an autoresolve. Even with a massive victory with few casualties, it's not unusual for the autocalc to result in the tiny units getting disbanded. Move those units out of the army and outside the reinforcement radius prior to the autocalc, then merge them back in after the battle is over.