Legendary difficulty

[edyzmedieval]

Has anyone finished off a Legendary campaign? I fired off one yesterday and I have to say I'm pretty much thinking every move that I make because it can easily be my last. The bonuses for the AI are immense and for every battle is really tough, you have to think every move in advance because the units rout so easily.

Started off as Hojo because of the starting position and richness of the provinces, going to convert soon to Christianity so I can have unlimited access to matchlocks.

Anyone?

[Vladimir]

Any update? I may try that with Date.

[smooth_operator]

I don't have the balls to try that just yet

[Arjos]

I've tried it with the Chosokabe, but didn't have the funds to afford a navy, and while I was fighting in Kyushu the Mori landed in Shikoku...

[Dead Guy]

I beat it as Oda. It's a different proposition for sure. I put a lot more archers as garrisons and made good use of diplomacy to divide my rivals and never fight alone on too many fronts.

Borderline cheating for legendary, if you can't stand being unable to save, ever.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

You can alt-tab and copy the legendary autosave to another directory if you really want to try something out. Paste it back and overwrite to "load". Sometimes, you can find yourself in deep trouble because an army doesn't do what you expect it to when you tell it to move, etc. Anyway, don't use it to cheat :p

[spicykorean]

I beat it as Oda. It's a different proposition for sure. I put a lot more archers as garrisons and made good use of diplomacy to divide my rivals and never fight alone on too many fronts.

Borderline cheating for legendary, if you can't stand being unable to save, ever.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

You can alt-tab and copy the legendary autosave to another directory if you really want to try something out. Paste it back and overwrite to "load". Sometimes, you can find yourself in deep trouble because an army doesn't do what you expect it to when you tell it to move, etc. Anyway, don't use it to cheat :p

Actually, I recommend backing up your legendary.save even if you're not going to use it. If your campaign becomes corrupted due to a patch or dlc, you might regret it later.

[Vladimir]

Actually, I recommend backing up your legendary.save even if you're not going to use it. If your campaign becomes corrupted due to a patch or dlc, you might regret it later.

Is this an issue?

[TinCow]

Has anyone finished off a Legendary campaign? I fired off one yesterday and I have to say I'm pretty much thinking every move that I make because it can easily be my last. The bonuses for the AI are immense and for every battle is really tough, you have to think every move in advance because the units rout so easily.

Started off as Hojo because of the starting position and richness of the provinces, going to convert soon to Christianity so I can have unlimited access to matchlocks.

Anyone?

I've beaten Legendary with Shimazu (converted to Christianity) and Date. I've aborted two Oda attempts following massive Ikko attacks that I could not repel. Currently working on Chosokabe as a breather before I make another run at Oda.

[edyzmedieval]

Any update?

Yeah, I failed twice already.

Third try, going better but those Ogigayatsu don't leave you much room to breathe. I've managed to set them on the back foot but I'm guessing Takeda is getting impatient and Imagawa as well.

[frogbeastegg]

I've beaten Legendary with Shimazu (converted to Christianity) and Date. I've aborted two Oda attempts following massive Ikko attacks that I could not repel. Currently working on Chosokabe as a breather before I make another run at Oda.

Does this mean we need to call you IronCow?

Impressive.

[TinCow]

Does this mean we need to call you IronCow?

Impressive.

I 'quit' TW after ETW due to the total inability of the AI to provide me with a challenging campaign. I only came back with TWS2 because everyone said the AI was vastly improved. I don't enjoy games where I know I'm going to win when I start playing. In TWS2, Legendary difficulty gives me a true chance of losing. The Oda Legendary campaigns have been, by far, the hardest campaigns I have ever played in any TW game. That's exactly what I want, and for that reason I won't play anything other than Legendary.

[phonicsmonkey]

I 'quit' TW after ETW due to the total inability of the AI to provide me with a challenging campaign. I only came back with TWS2 because everyone said the AI was vastly improved. I don't enjoy games where I know I'm going to win when I start playing. In TWS2, Legendary difficulty gives me a true chance of losing. The Oda Legendary campaigns have been, by far, the hardest campaigns I have ever played in any TW game. That's exactly what I want, and for that reason I won't play anything other than Legendary.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Legendary the same as VH but just without the ability to save mid-turn? I would like to give Legendary a go but the way I play (getting up, sitting down again, rushing off to do something else), the saving thing is prohibitive for me. I had consoled myself that I wasn't really missing out on anything...

[Dead Guy]

You also cannot give orders while battles are paused, or move the camera at all IIRC. Don't think that's in VH, or am I remembering wrong?

[frogbeastegg]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Legendary the same as VH but just without the ability to save mid-turn? I would like to give Legendary a go but the way I play (getting up, sitting down again, rushing off to do something else), the saving thing is prohibitive for me. I had consoled myself that I wasn't really missing out on anything...

To quote my as-yet-unpublished guide on the matter of legendary difficulty:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Legendary

Legendary is the mode where you should pretty much expect to die unless you play an absolutely exceptional game, and quite possibly even then. This is a new difficulty mode, combining very hard mode with a series of extras to create the ultimate Total War challenge. Some of these extras were available as optional modes in prior titles, such as restricting the camera so it could not move past a set distance from your troops. Others are entirely new. The AI does not gain any new bonuses or capabilities compared to very hard; this mode focuses on curbing the god-like abilities normally available to the player. Once you commit to legendary difficulty you cannot alter the difficulty for that campaign, neither on the campaign map nor on the battle map.

On legendary mode you are only permitted a single save. Each time you save your game your old save will be overwritten. If things go pear shaped, tough! No winding the clock back. The game is saved before and after every battle; if you lost your entire army, live with it! You may find yourself developing a degree of sympathy to the AI, which can never reload.

The remainder of the changes affect the battle map, and are as follows:

• No radar map for land and sea battles
• While the game is paused no orders can be given
• The camera cannot be moved while the game is paused
• You cannot move your camera more than 200 meters from the centre of any of your units. The camera will be "rubber banded" to the nearest unit
• Enemy units more than 600 meters from your units are treated as hidden
• Enemy Tooltips have minimal information
• Enemy Unit IDs are removed

Even if you are not keen on tough games it is worth trying this mode at least once, just to see how different the experience is.

[TinCow]

The no orders (or even looking around) while paused, combined with the lack of minimap, makes a HUGE difference. I cannot count the number of times I have been flanked or charged in the rear by AI units that I didn't see as a result of these changes.

[Arjos]

Is this an issue?

Oh yes have a back up save game, I had a CTD twice and both times had to restart the campaign :S

[Major Robert Dump]

Legendary has been kicking me hard. Not able to focus like I should and playing bits here and there and just leaving game running nonstop. I'm beginning to think that Christianity is NOT the way to go, at least not until after realm divide, because I cannot afford to lose allies too early.

My games typically fall apart in the area of turn 40-60, as Shimazu, Chosokobe, Date and Uesugi. Keep in mind that these are my first campaigns, I'm still a noob for the most part short of reading the guides. In fact, I only recently realized you still pay full upkeep for a depleted unit. Anwya, horror story to follow:

Had a crazy game as Chosokobe where I had the entire island by year 48, thanks to a diplomatic cluster between everyone. Went on to take the 4 westernmost provinces on the west coast and get all the trade hubs, taking advantage of a 3-way war on the continent that left all the others as rebels. This was by year 53. then -- get this -- Oda takes the Shogunate. I look at the diplomap on the next turn, and he has -- no bull -- 16 provinces, and no enemies other than small clans. But year 60, he had 28 provnices, and no enemies other than small clans. I converted to christianity, and although we were very friendly and I only had 14 provnces by year 62, he and everyone else declared war on me and my game fell apart between losing trade income and mass revolts and amphibious assaults.

Of the 14 or so abandoned games on legendary, only 1 I have seen the shogunate taken like so.

I will probably start backing up save games at pivotal moments, like right before I convert. At this pace I can't keep up with all the restarting

[TinCow]

I'm beginning to think that Christianity is NOT the way to go, at least not until after realm divide, because I cannot afford to lose allies too early.

Well, having won 3 Legendary campaigns now, I have a different take on this. The key isn't Christianity per se, but trade nodes. As I play the game, I expect to have NO trade (or allies) whatsoever after Realm Divide. Thus, I focus my pre-divide efforts on creating a stable economy where I can fund my armies and expansion without any financial difficulties despite total trade isolation. This can be done without trade nodes, but it is much harder. If you can secure the trade nodes, you will become very wealthy very quickly, even if you have no trade partners. However, the key to securing the trade nodes is sea power.

It is prohibitively expensive and tactically difficult to maintain dominance at sea with traditional navies. However, once you have Nanban Trade Ships, control of the seas is incredibly easy and you can pretty much sail wherever you want without worrying about much of anything. Thus, Christianity works well because it gives you Nanban Trade Ships, and Nanban Trade Ships give you the trade nodes. What I do is try and grab as many trade nodes as possible early on. Just stick a single trade ship on each to 'reserve' them, and then back fill to increase profits. Once Nanban Trade Ships become available, I retire all my traditional ships (except trade ships). Every single trade node gets 9 trade ships and 1 Nanban Trade Ship. If the node gets attacked, withdraw the 9 trade ships right at the start to keep them safe, and fight with the Nanban. You will win and your trade fleet will remain intact and keep the profits flowing in. In addition, with a Nanban ship on each node, you can easily detach it to clear out any fleet that's raiding the trade route nearby.

For fleets outside the trade nodes, each is made up of a pair of Nanbans. I have not encountered any enemy fleets capable of defeating two Nanbans. With complete control of the seas, you also get easy control of Kyushu and Shikoku. Once those islands are conquered, they can be defended entirely by your Nanban fleets, without the need for any local armies. This gives you a good 12 or so provinces as a base that are never threatened by the enemy. With that kind of a 'base' and control of the trade nodes, you can easily field 3-4 high quality armies. You can then fight wherever you choose to on the mainland with your entire force. Due to the starting location, obviously Shimazu and Chosokobe are the easiest factions to do this with. However, it can be done with anyone. Simply secure a 'core' of about 4-5 provinces that you are capable of defending with your existing armies, then convert and spend a large number of turns converting your provinces over. Then focus on your naval and trade improvement, while making as much money as you can via trade with other clans. When you've got your fleet ready, take the nodes (declaring war to take them from their existing owners if need be). After you have your nodes fully loaded, invade and conquer the islands (if you haven't already). After that, the world is your oyster. With your high income, you can spam missionaries and generals and level them up to further increase tech research rates. You'll eventually be churning out exceptional-level armor and accuracy troops. There's not much out there that can stand up to an army of 9 exceptional armor rank 4 Naginata Samurai and 9 exceptional accuracy rank 4 Bow Samurai.

Another side perk from being immensely wealthy is that it allows you to use agents in a manner you wouldn't otherwise. I cannot over-emphasize how much of a difference bribing armies can make. If you have 100k in the bank, you don't need to think twice about spending 20k on a bribe. It's not uncommon to find yourself being attacked by two or three full stacks to your one stack. As long as you brought your agents along with your main army, you can totally turn the tide. Use your ninjas to remove generals from stacks, then bribe the enemy stack with a metsuke. The situation that was two stacks against your one just turned into your two stacks against their one. Destroy them, then either keep your new army or disband it, depending on your income and military needs. Is there a front that is giving you problems due to multiple avenues of approach? Send your missionaries off to start up revolts everywhere. Rebels are your friends in Realm Divide, as they don't expand. They're a nice road bump for AI armies trying to approach from another directions.

Again, none of this is necessary for a Legendary win (I did not convert in my Date win). The point is simply that Christianity makes it much easier to be wealthy, and being wealthy makes it much easier to win.

[Prodigal]

Excuse me if this seems a rude question, but I seem to be over come with small sword syndrome, Tin are you playing all the battles on Leg. too?

[TinCow]

Excuse me if this seems a rude question, but I seem to be over come with small sword syndrome, Tin are you playing all the battles on Leg. too?

Yes. Max difficulty, 40 minute timer.

My battles all go generally the same way. Long line of spears behind a long line of archers. My armies are usually 50/50 of each. Archers shoot, when enemy closes range the spears move up in front of them to take the melee. If it's early on and the spears are Ashigaru, they go into spear wall. With proper terrain use (and use of loose formation for archers when facing more than a couple AI archers), this is good enough to win. One spear unit on each flank should be ready to deal with flanking cav. Later on, swap the Ashigaru for Naginata and Bow Samurai, but tactics remain the same. Above all, defend as much as possible. When at all possible, let the AI assault while you sit inside a castle. If that's not possible, just use smart positioning to take them apart with your archers. If you stay ranged-heavy, the AI will often attack you even if they are technically the defender. So, when you are attacking, always watch the AI for the first 30 seconds or so of the battle before you move. It will be clear right there if it's going to sit still and defend, move to a different spot and defend, or rush you. If it rushes, move your army backwards to a good defensive terrain spot and pretend it's a defensive battle.

On the campaign map, maximize your replenishment rate. Your highest ranking general should be given the resupply office. Prioritize roads everywhere you go. If you're going to be defending a province for a while, improve the castle as much as you can within your rice limits, and build an encampment/barracks. You can easily achieve 30%+ replenishment rates in a province, which makes your army essentially immune to attrition from multiple battles... all you have to worry about is annihilation in a single battle. If annihilation is a serious risk, just don't fight the battle. A full stack army is far more important than a province. You can recapture the province a lot faster (and cheaper) than you can rebuild your army. Do not be afraid to retreat and let the AI take a province if doing so will get you out of a multi-stack trap and let you kill each enemy stack one at a time.

[Merak]

To quote my as-yet-unpublished guide on the matter of legendary difficulty:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Legendary

Legendary is the mode where you should pretty much expect to die unless you play an absolutely exceptional game, and quite possibly even then. This is a new difficulty mode, combining very hard mode with a series of extras to create the ultimate Total War challenge. Some of these extras were available as optional modes in prior titles, such as restricting the camera so it could not move past a set distance from your troops. Others are entirely new. The AI does not gain any new bonuses or capabilities compared to very hard; this mode focuses on curbing the god-like abilities normally available to the player. Once you commit to legendary difficulty you cannot alter the difficulty for that campaign, neither on the campaign map nor on the battle map.

On legendary mode you are only permitted a single save. Each time you save your game your old save will be overwritten. If things go pear shaped, tough! No winding the clock back. The game is saved before and after every battle; if you lost your entire army, live with it! You may find yourself developing a degree of sympathy to the AI, which can never reload.

The remainder of the changes affect the battle map, and are as follows:

• No radar map for land and sea battles
• While the game is paused no orders can be given
• The camera cannot be moved while the game is paused
• You cannot move your camera more than 200 meters from the centre of any of your units. The camera will be "rubber banded" to the nearest unit
• Enemy units more than 600 meters from your units are treated as hidden
• Enemy Tooltips have minimal information
• Enemy Unit IDs are removed

Even if you are not keen on tough games it is worth trying this mode at least once, just to see how different the experience is.

holy mother and i have real difficultly on normal (playing on easy right now) :)

[Jacobin]

OK have made multiple attempts at the Oda on legendary and it is insanely difficult.

My latest attempt was terminated in Turn 23 when no fewer than 3 stacks totalling 9,000 Ikko Ikki descended on my last castle (and I don't even have the DLC so these were regular unbuffed Ikko Ikki).

This goes beyond challenging or even unfair to become just silly - how on earth can an AI faction recruit and send three nearly full stacks against just one of their multiple enemies so early in the game?

Pity as every legendary campaign I've tried so far has been real fun for the first dozen or so turns - the lack of a invisible helicopter camera makes battles a lot more realistic/interesting and the no save idea does really concentrate the mind and make every decision a life and death one.

But if at turn 20-ish great undefeatable hordes of AI troops are stomping around annihilating everything in their path there really doesn't seem much point in playing at legendary.

And if I can't feel both challenged and still have a chance of winning at the hardest difficulty level then I really feel as if I've wasted my money....

[frogbeastegg]

There's not much out there that can stand up to an army of 9 exceptional armor rank 4 Naginata Samurai and 9 exceptional accuracy rank 4 Bow Samurai.

That's 18 units. The general makes 19. I'm curious - what's the 20th unit? Or don't you fill the stack up to max capacity?

[Dead Guy]

Building on TinCow's last paragraph about leaving provinces not to lose an army, and Jacobin's trouble with being overwhelmed, I'd suggest sticking a bunch of ashigaru archers in those forts you leave for the enemy. If you can afford it, fill the walls with them in the smallest two forts. Accept the fact that they won't make it, just use them and perhaps a yari unit in addition to the garrison to decimate the enemy as much as possible for every settlement you allow them to take. Facing them in the field will be much easier this way. Don't underestimate the damage throw-away bow ashigaru can do in a siege defense. If it's on of those forts where the AI attacks from 4-5 directions, they can often rout the 3 units coming at them from one or two directions and you can move them from the wall to fire on enemies locked in combat with your ashigaru garrison inside the fort or enemies on the ground outside the walls.

[TinCow]

That's 18 units. The general makes 19. I'm curious - what's the 20th unit? Or don't you fill the stack up to max capacity?

I don't have any strict rules about it, and it's not even always 18 total. I cited that number simply because I tend to stick to a 50/50 ratio of bow/yari ashigaru or bow/naginata samurai. Sometimes it's 8/8, which leaves 3 slots open other than general. What I fill the extra slots with depends on my mood. Sometimes its katana samurai, sometimes No-Dachi, sometimes Mangonels (awesome for battles, but really slows down the army on the campaign map), etc. Sometimes I just pack it up to 19 with my bow/spear units. If that is the case, I always make the 'extra' unit a bow unit. They always have fewer men than the spear units, and thus a 9 unit long line of spears can still cover a 10 unit long line of bows. I think the most effective 'extras' for me are 3 Yari Cavalry on an 8/8 army, but the lack of the pause/orders option on Legendary leads to some neglect of them during the battles. Thus, those units get annihilated more often than I would like in my armies, and I don't always replace them.

Lack of unit annihilation is one of the reasons I use this really simple army combo/formation. The Naginata are just steel walls designed to survive whatever is thrown at them, while the archers rain death on everything. Naginatas built in a province with a Master Armourer and an Armoury have 14 Armour, which makes them last a very, very long time in combat. Bow Samurai can be similarly buffed to make them deadly. If you have the tech that gives archer +10 accuracy and build them in a province with a Master Bowmaker and a Hunting Lodge, vanilla Bow Samurai with 0 experience will start with 75 accuracy, and Chosokabe Bow Samurai with 0 experience with start with 85 accuracy. If you upgrade to a Bow Master Dojo (or better yet a Legendary one), you can churn out Bow Samurai that start with 90+ accuracy. That's the same as a triple-sized Chosokabe Bow Hero with slightly shorter range... and you can have an unlimited number of them. Massed volleys from a line of those units makes entire enemy units not just break, but vanish. I also prefer the Bow Samurai over Bow Warrior Monks, as I find that on Legendary survivability is more important than killing power. Bow Samurai are hardy enough to take a bit of melee if they need to, as well as to defend castle walls. That can't be done with Warrior Monks.

In my current game, I'm about to experiment with a new army that replaces all the bow samurai with matchlock samurai. Built in the same 'accuracy' province as the Bow Samurai, they will be starting with about 80+ accuracy as well. I haven't tested this army yet, but I'm interested to see how well a line of 8 of those guys does in combat. I'm hoping that, with proper use of Rapid Fire, nothing will even reach their ranks. However, I'm unsure about their survivability due to vulnerability to longer range archer fire. I'll post again once I've tested this one.

[Dead Guy]

I usually take one and never more than one unit of bow warrior monks. They're used for two things: An opening whistling arrows salvo on a unit in the rear and center in field battles after which they withdraw behind the lines, though I don't know how useful that really is, and to attack archers manning the walls without being shot at. I'm torn between recruiting them in my fortress monastery province or artisan province though.

[TinCow]

OK have made multiple attempts at the Oda on legendary and it is insanely difficult.

My latest attempt was terminated in Turn 23 when no fewer than 3 stacks totalling 9,000 Ikko Ikki descended on my last castle (and I don't even have the DLC so these were regular unbuffed Ikko Ikki).

This goes beyond challenging or even unfair to become just silly - how on earth can an AI faction recruit and send three nearly full stacks against just one of their multiple enemies so early in the game?

Pity as every legendary campaign I've tried so far has been real fun for the first dozen or so turns - the lack of a invisible helicopter camera makes battles a lot more realistic/interesting and the no save idea does really concentrate the mind and make every decision a life and death one.

But if at turn 20-ish great undefeatable hordes of AI troops are stomping around annihilating everything in their path there really doesn't seem much point in playing at legendary.

And if I can't feel both challenged and still have a chance of winning at the hardest difficulty level then I really feel as if I've wasted my money....

Yeah, this is the exact same problem I have with Oda. I don't think it's so much Legendary that is the problem as much as Oda's location. The religious difference and Ikko's aggressive AI make it pretty much impossible to avoid war with them. It's also generally inevitable that you'll end up at war with the Hattori or whichever other factions ends of taking control of that area. Even if you secure the coastal corridor, that means you still have three different avenues of approach to your 'heartland' of Owari and Mino. These are: (1) road from Omi to Mino, (2) road from South Shinano to Mino, and (3) road from Ise/Omi to Owari. That's a LOT of territory to cover with defensive armies; I generally cannot afford enough armies to take care of that area plus the coastal road. In addition, it's very difficult to make that defense simpler. In many spots on the map a bad defensive location can be overcome by simply blitzing through it to grab the choke-point provinces beyond. That can't be done in the Oda starting area. To the east, expanding to South Shinano helps create a 'speedbump' before an attacker gets to Mino, but doesn't reduce the number of armies you need to defend the area. To the west, moving into Ise and Omi actively increases the number of access points into your territory. In order to simplify the defense, you have to take a LOT of land, namely Ise, Omi, Iga, Yamato, Kii, Kawachi, and Kyoto. I have yet to be able to assemble enough armies to be able to do that while still defending my lands.

For this reason, next time I try Oda I am going to attempt to relocate slightly. I will move south into the coastal corridor. After conquering Mikawa I will abandon Owari and Mino. Mikawa is a good choke-point province and with a strong castle and a full stack I think I can hold it just fine while expanding towards Hojo along the coast. This will also significantly reduce the number of clans I have borders with, which should also reduce the number of wars I have to fight. Not likely to see many Ikko in Mikawa early in the game. The coastal corridor has some super provinces, and I can grab a library province, a blacksmith province, and a gold mine province while still holding a good defensive position. With those in my pocket I think I can tech up, grab some trade nodes, and build up a good enough force to take back Owari/Mino and then blitz into the Kyoto region. I haven't done this yet, but it's what I'm going to try on my third go at Oda Legendary.

[frogbeastegg]

Isn't Oda the hardest of the playable clans on legendary? A lot of people seem to think so, and from their position on the map I'd agree. At least the other very difficult clan, the Tokugawa, have their overlords to shelter behind if they play the diplomacy game correctly.

Hojo look like they would be an interesting one to try on legendary IMO. The combination of their position in busy central Japan, and their castle related bonus, should combine nicely. Once the guide is done and my current Date campaign concluded, I may give it a go. I'm not sure how I will get on though; I hate having a restricted camera on the battlefield and always used to turn it off in the earlier games. I used to have lots of problems with running my 'face' smack into an invisible wall right where I needed to give a move order.

I wonder if anyone has tried the Ikko-Ikki on legendary?

[TinCow]

Based on their location, I think Hattori would be pretty hard on Legendary as well. Possibly rivaling Oda. They've basically got the same problem; too many invasion routes to defend early on in the game, and the Ikko nearby ready to send their gibbering hordes at you. However, since I didn't buy the Limited Edition, I can't play them and thus don't know for sure.

[frogbeastegg]

Based on their location, I think Hattori would be pretty hard on Legendary as well. Possibly rivaling Oda. They've basically got the same problem; too many invasion routes to defend early on in the game, and the Ikko nearby ready to send their gibbering hordes at you. However, since I didn't buy the Limited Edition, I can't play them and thus don't know for sure.

Not sure, I haven't played as the Hattori yet. The position does not look promising at first glance, however the game rates them as easy. I've found the ratings to be pretty accurate so far, and clans with difficult starting positions are correctly identified as hard. That makes me think there is more to it. I think that if you allied with the Ashikaga, then expanded south into the 3 provinces in the jutting out chunk of land, you might be ok provided you can garrison your castles well. That's a reasonably defensible area as the castles form a neat little chain facing west, all within marching distance of each other. Most of your borders are covered by sea, and can't be landed on. To the east, it's a good distance so you should have notice of any army entering your lands and thus have time to react or beef up your garrison. North is a bigger worry, but there's your capital's castle controlling most of the approach. From that little base I would grow my power as best I could, let enemies break themselves on my walls, and step out to take provinces when opportunity presented itself. On the battlefield you'd have a strong deployment advantage thanks to most units having kisho training, and on the campaign map your ninja are a bit stronger so playing foul with the enemy's armies will be easier. The Ikko-Ikki might be the straw which breaks the Hattori's back though; the DLC has made them very strong.

The Oda don't really have a neat little cluster of castles they can seize and defend like that. Wherever they go, they're stretching their borders.