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Thread: Slower conversion rate and more rebellions

  1. #1

    Default Slower conversion rate and more rebellions

    I'm playing MTW: VI with XL mod and I'm trying to make the game a bit more challenging. I try to role-play as much as possible (for example no edge hugging etc.) and as a default I change the starting cash for AI to 20 000 and for myself to 1000 gold. This makes the beginning more difficult, but once I survive long enough and get my prvinces developed, victory is inevitable.

    As one thing which I find most unrealistic in MTW is the ease of maintaining a large empire (I know, it's supposed to be a game, but anyway...). I thought that one way to make it more difficult would be to increase the probability of rebellions. Ideally this would be done by raising the overall rebellion probability and changing that the ruler would only affect the loyalty of the province he is in and the neighbouring provinces, but not provinces connected by sea areas with ships, so larger empires would face constant rebellions and small kingdoms very few or none. Has anybody tried this or has anybody any idea how to mod this?

    I was also wondering is it possible to change the unrest probability of a single faction or is it only possible to change a unrest probability of a single province?

    I found this on the wiki on how to change the unrest setting for a province:
    https://forums.totalwar.org/wiki/ind..._Startpos_File
    SetAttributes:: This line sets most of the important province specific data. The data is in order of name, inherent unrest (in increments of 10%), province culture, climate, architecture, mapgroup, farm income (actual income is 52% of this value), castle name, land type, vista, river, and victory setting. The terrain and climate determine the map to use for rebellion and sieges.

    SetAttributes:: HOLLAND "Netherlands" 2 CATHOLIC_CULTURE LUSH AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN -1 340 "Rotterdam" COAST FLAT RIVER TRUE
    So if I have understood this correctly changing the number "2" between "Netherlands" and CATHOLIC_CULTURE to 3 (three) would change the inherent unrest from 20% to 30%?


    One other thing which has also something to do with unrest: I think population of provinces convert to another religion far too quickly, it won't take many years for a province that was once 100% muslim to change to 80-90% christian. In reality I think this change would take much longer and any attempt for a quick change would lead to unrest.
    Conversion rates caused by buildings and agents can be changed (I supposed combat units do not affect conversion?), but is there any way to change the annual conversion rate from one religion to another or are agents and buildings the only factors changing the conversion rate?
    Last edited by Kolvorok; 06-28-2011 at 13:59.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Slower conversion rate and more rebellions

    Hello Kolvorok, and welcome to the org, enjoy your stay
    the following apply to the best of my current knowledge:

    1. Regarding rebeliousness; i thing certain factions like Almohads and HRE are more prone to Civil wars - however this seems to be hardcoded in teh exe. You can only use that hence, by playing such factions.
    It is possible to change the rebelliousness of single provinces. Go to Main game folder\campaign\startpositions and find the txt that perscribes the campaign era you intend to play (early/high/late). Then open that txt and go to province attributes. There is a rebelliousness paramemter there that ranges from 0 (most provinces) to 4 (Portugal and Livonia in vanilla).
    Note however that increasing the average rebelliousness by much (say most provinces set at 1) will make the AI hold larger garrisons and so the campaign game will be more static and stale (less attacks and counter attacks by teh AI). Also note that the AI has trouble keeping provinces of very high rebelliousness, espeically if they are of a different religion - as teh Almohads in Portugal in vanilla. This means that such provinces can become death traps that drain good AI power which he could instead use to become large and challenge you.

    2. In terms of conversion there are three factors;
    a) The piety of your king; every faction has a default conversion rate that spreads through the provinces it occupies. That depends on King piety
    b) The conversion rate of buildings like churches/mosques, monasteries, cathedrals/G.Mosques. These are spilling from the provinces of the building to the outter ones. They can be modified in the Building_Prod txt found in your main game folder. In my opinion, these are too high in vanilla, and make all other factors redundant.
    c) The conversion power of religious agents, like priests, bishops, cardinals, imams and mullahs. These can be also changed in the appropriate column in the unit_prod txt in your main game folder.

    My perception as said is that the conversion rate from buildings with its spilling effect is too high and makes both the piety of the King and the conversion power of agents, redundant. I would reccomend to either eliminate or make very low the conversion from buildings and leave the religious agents as they are for a more challenging gameplay that also is compatible with what they AI can do. In addition, i would suggest to leave rebelliousness low, and also reduce the high rebelliousness provinces to max 2. These should make for more challenging gameplay. This approach is the one used in the Caravel Mod.

    Regards
    Last edited by gollum; 06-28-2011 at 15:02. Reason: added welcome
    The Caravel Mod: a (very much) improvedvanilla MTW/VI v2.1 early campaign

    Please make sure you have the latest version (v3.3)
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  3. #3
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Slower conversion rate and more rebellions

    Welcome to the Org, Kolvorok!

    Unfortunately, some things about the game are hardcoded. The happiness effect of the faction leader across the empire is one, as is the conversion rate to the faction's religion. gollum is on the money with the building conversion rates though, they give both a happiness bonus and a high conversion rate, which knocks back the chance of rebellion quickly. Another point, the religious buildings are in separate building lines, so the bonuses for happiness and conversion stack. A Church and a Monastery will give a combined total of +30% to happiness, and 20% conversion. The standard Bishop is only 2% conversion.

    You are correct in how to change the province unrest factor in the startpos file. The building conversion is set in the build_prod file, column 22 (Faith Propagation). The conversion for agents is in the unit_prod file, column 67 (Faith). I think any unit can be set to add conversion, for grins you could make Ghazis or Fanatics convert a small amount. I've always thought that Ports/Merchants might be a good place to throw in a small conversion rate for all religions (even Jews/Heretics/Pagans), more contact with the outside world would encourage religious experimentation and immigration, and might liven things up a bit.
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Slower conversion rate and more rebellions

    Thank you for adding details for our new friend drone. It wasn't for lack of effort that i was not more specific, but because i have not the game at hand and did not remember the cols in question :)
    The Caravel Mod: a (very much) improvedvanilla MTW/VI v2.1 early campaign

    Please make sure you have the latest version (v3.3)
    Since v3.3 the Caravel Mod includes customised campaigns for huge and default unit settings

    Download v3.3
    Info & Discussion Thread

  5. #5
    Member Member Stazi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Slower conversion rate and more rebellions

    Just some of my thoughts.
    As gollum said AI can't handle high rebellious provinces properly. Happiness in such provinces fluctuates constantly so the AI loses them sooner or later (probably sooner). Big garrisons don't change much cause rebel armies are scaled up to the size of garrison. Low rebelliousness help to keep the AI's empires together. The same goes for buildings that improve happiness and shorten the time of religious conversion. If the AI has less problems with managing its own empire it becomes a greater threat to the player. The constant struggle with rebels makes the AI's empires small and insignificant. Of course, things that help the AI, helps player too but the player is much more versatile and can handle much more difficult situations than the AI. IMO the best way to make the game more challenging is to make it easy for the AI.

    Before you start to make major changes try to check some of the existing mods. For example Redux is the mod where rebels are really strong. On the other side is probably XL mod (piles of money > huge armies and garrisons > high happiness > rare rebellions and big empires). Somewhere in the middle is the Caravel mod which gives the most balanced gameplay. These mods will save you much of the testing. You can just copy the solutions which suit you best.
    Last edited by Stazi; 06-28-2011 at 18:46.
    "Do not fight for glory. Do not fight for love of your lord. Do not fight for hatred, honor or faith. Fight only for victory and you will succeed." - Uji sensei.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Slower conversion rate and more rebellions

    Thanks alot for the quick and informative replies everyone, and thank you for the warm welcome also

    I think there is a point in making things easier for the AI, so I will leave rebellion probability the way it is but change the conversion rates caused by buildings and agents very low. I guess this will make the pace of the game slower but maybe more realistic and hopefully more difficult for me because fast conquest won´t be possible anymore.

    Just wondering that if I build for example a church to a mostly muslim province, will that cause unrest?


    Quote Originally Posted by drone
    I've always thought that Ports/Merchants might be a good place to throw in a small conversion rate for all religions (even Jews/Heretics/Pagans), more contact with the outside world would encourage religious experimentation and immigration, and might liven things up a bit.
    I don't have the game files available right now, but is it possible to make buildings and/or agents to convert people to other religion than your own? I mean, it would be kind of realistic that a university would convert people to heresy for example


    This goes slightly offtopic, but is it possible to make faction re-emerging more likely to happen?


    EDIT: If I change the building and agent conversion rates in the middle of my current campaign, will I be able to use my old save games?
    Last edited by Kolvorok; 06-29-2011 at 09:57.

  7. #7
    Member Member Stazi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Slower conversion rate and more rebellions

    Just wondering that if I build for example a church to a mostly muslim province, will that cause unrest?
    No. Dependencies system is not so sophisticated. Church is just a building that increase happiness and spread faith. It's role is to reduce the chance of unrest.

    I don't have the game files available right now, but is it possible to make buildings and/or agents to convert people to other religion than your own? I mean, it would be kind of realistic that a university would convert people to heresy for example
    Agents can spread any faith you want. Buildings only your own.

    This goes slightly offtopic, but is it possible to make faction re-emerging more likely to happen?
    AFAIK no. It depends on how many heirs the faction had when disappeared, what age they were, actual happiness of it's old provinces. Even if all of these factors are covered it still needs lucky dice roll to reemerge.
    "Do not fight for glory. Do not fight for love of your lord. Do not fight for hatred, honor or faith. Fight only for victory and you will succeed." - Uji sensei.

  8. #8
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Slower conversion rate and more rebellions

    Quote Originally Posted by Stazi View Post
    Agents can spread any faith you want. Buildings only your own.
    Ah yes, the building faith propagation column doesn't specify which faith, unlike the unit file. My bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolvorok
    EDIT: If I change the building and agent conversion rates in the middle of my current campaign, will I be able to use my old save games?
    I think this will work.
    The .Org's MTW Reference Guide Wiki - now taking comments, corrections, suggestions, and submissions

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    Si je n'étais pas jouer à des jeux que je serais mort de petits animaux à un taux plus élevé que je suis maintenant - Louis VI The Fat

    "Why do you hate the extremely limited Spartan version of freedom?" - Lemur

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