Poll: Who was the greatest "barbarian" general?

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  1. #1
    Uergobretos Senior Member Brennus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Greatest General 390BC-14AD

    Quote Originally Posted by moonburn View Post
    the belgian and briton heroes got beaten by cesar easily and their only victory was because of deceit and not superior soldiers tactits and strategy they almost had a 2nd victory but quintus cicero was enough for them while viriathus fighted against a scipiu (not sure if it was africanus or not tough)
    I wouldn't say the Britons and Belgae were easily beaten, Caesar suffered heavy losses when the Belgic confederacy attacked his marching column, his first expedition to Britain almost ended in disaster, Cassivellaunus attack on Caesar's ships while Caesar was north of the Thames was a clever strategic move which could have succeeded. Also, the Roman army which Cassivellaunus, Commios and Ambiorix were fighting was the post-Marian proffesional force not the citizen militia of Scipio Aemillianus day, Celtic victories of the 1st Century BC were likely to have required more men and acts of deceit to even the odds.

    Quote Originally Posted by moonburn View Post
    i tend to believe that the name brenus stands for a title such as imperator or rex a kind of name given to a great victor such as the greeks always added magnus to their greatest or the seulekids/ptolemaioi loved to name people soter or the name brenus might just mean fieldmarshal of all the swords and since romans and greeks found the kelts repulsive they probably never gave it a try at understading their language in those days and so they just called them whatever they believed their men called them
    Quite alot of the names of Celtic leaders we know appear to have been titles rather than actual personal names (Vercingetorix, Ambiorix, Dumnorix, Orgetorix, Cassivellaunus, Cunobelin, Bolgus).



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    iudex thervingiorum Member athanaric's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Greatest General 390BC-14AD

    Quote Originally Posted by Brennus View Post
    Quite alot of the names of Celtic leaders we know appear to have been titles rather than actual personal names (Vercingetorix, Ambiorix, Dumnorix, Orgetorix, Cassivellaunus, Cunobelin, Bolgus).
    Same for the Persians, at least the Achaemenids. Dareios, Xerxes, and Artaxerxes are all titulary names.




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    Uergobretos Senior Member Brennus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Greatest General 390BC-14AD

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    Same for the Persians, at least the Achaemenids. Dareios, Xerxes, and Artaxerxes are all titulary names.
    Very interesting, I knew it was the case for native Egyptian rulers (Akenaten, Tutankamun) but I didn't know it was the case for Achaemenids. Do you know what any of these names meant?



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    iudex thervingiorum Member athanaric's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Greatest General 390BC-14AD

    Quote Originally Posted by Brennus View Post
    Very interesting, I knew it was the case for native Egyptian rulers (Akenaten, Tutankamun) but I didn't know it was the case for Achaemenids. Do you know what any of these names meant?
    Sure. Dareios (Darayava'uš, from daraya- and *vahu-) means "preserving good", i.e. "Keeper of Good" (for lack of a stronger word).
    Xerxes (Xšaya-ŗšan-) means "ruling over heroes", i.e. "Lord of Heroes".
    Artaxerxes (Ŗta-xšaça-) means "governing through (?) truthfulness", i.e. something along the lines of "Truthful King". (The first Artaxerxes had problems with his legitimacy IIRC).

    Other Teispids and Achaemenids had names that made sense too, but I don't know if these were throne names.
    Last edited by athanaric; 06-30-2011 at 21:11.




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    Uergobretos Senior Member Brennus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Greatest General 390BC-14AD

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    Sure. Dareios (Darayava'uš, from daraya- and *vahu-) means "preserving good", i.e. "Keeper of Good" (for lack of a stronger word).
    Xerxes (Xšaya-ŗšan-) means "ruling over heroes", i.e. "Lord of Heroes".
    Artaxerxes (Ŗta-xšaça-) means "governing through (?) truthfulness", i.e. something along the lines of "Truthful King". (The first Artaxerxes had problems with his legitimacy IIRC).

    Other Teispids and Achaemenids had names that made sense too, but I don't know if these were throne names.
    Well I go to bed tonight more educated than when I woke this morning. For your knowledge, sir!



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    Default Re: The Greatest General 390BC-14AD

    Well now....let me think about this. Caesar was not only in possession of a professional army, he was also aided by very competent officers. Ariovistus was clearly a very competent commander, and also showed shrewd political skills. He had subjugated large parts of Gaul, knew of the political situation in Rome (with regards to Caesar's unpopularity with powerful factions there) and had the loyalty of many Germanic/eltic tribes. The tide of the confrontation between Caesar and Ariovistus was turned by the intervention of Publius Crassus.

    Boduagnatus (not even mentioned here) nearly destroyed Caesar's army with the Nervii and their allies the Atrebates and Viramandui in a surprise attack. The intervention of Labienus was necessary to turn the tide there.

    When Caesar first 'invaded' Britain, much as his account tries to paper over it, he was repelled by the forces summoned by Cassivellaunus (presumably it was he). He mounted a second campaign the following summer and succeeded in bringing Cassivellaunus to terms. But the Catuvellauni remained and were seemingly a powerful force within Southern Britain for some time following.

    Vercingetorix was undone, seemingly, by the indiscipline and impetuousness of a non-professional army. He was overrules with regards to defending Aventicos, and then some of his cavalry, instead of harassing (as they were supposed to) were drawn into battle and routed. Vercingetorix was then, at Alesia, reliant upon other leaders to relieve his forces. Had there been a similar level of cohesion and command talent among his 'officers' as there was in Caesar's (professional) army then Caesar could very easily have been destroyed there and then.

    As for Ambiorix, I hardly think it is fair to say that Cicero was enough to deal with him. Had Caesar not relieved him when he did then he too would have suffered at the hands of the Belgic uprising.

    Divide and conquer was the order of the day for Caesar in Gaul. I believe this is why the Arverni were (unusually) given their independence while the Allobroges were subjected to full Roman rule after their joint defeat. The Romans knew very well that the Arverni were the Aedui's greatest enemy in Gaul and - rather than have the Aedui gain too strong a position in Gaul it would be better to have them constantly at odds with their near-neighbours.

    Rome had just the right balance of cohesion and competition, as well as a professional, well-trained and disciplined army, that there were many commanders of considerable talent to help orchestrate maneuvers, to make telling command decisions. Those that Caesar was up against were, essentially, guerrilla leaders leading (at best) semi-professional warrior armies.

    Who was the best? Any one of them, with even one more talented 'deputy' could have had a very different outcome. Of those who could have had a lasting legacy.... how much has that to do with their talent and how much to do with the inherent instabilities of tribal confederations?

  7. #7

    Default Re: The Greatest General 390BC-14AD

    great post Gracchus

  8. #8
    Uergobretos Senior Member Brennus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Greatest General 390BC-14AD

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius Sempronius Gracchus View Post
    Boduagnatus (not even mentioned here) ?
    As I said my knowledge is finite.



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  9. #9

    Default Re: The Greatest General 390BC-14AD

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius Sempronius Gracchus View Post
    Ariovistus was clearly a very competent commander, and also showed shrewd political skills. He had subjugated large parts of Gaul, knew of the political situation in Rome (with regards to Caesar's unpopularity with powerful factions there) and had the loyalty of many Germanic/eltic tribes.
    Your post is excellent, but I must address something here. Ariouistos did not control large areas of Gaul. He settled his forces on a third of Sequani territory and levied hostages from the Aedui and Sequani. This would put his total dominion over a certain section of the upper Arar River in France.

  10. #10
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Greatest General 390BC-14AD

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    Same for the Persians, at least the Achaemenids. Dareios, Xerxes, and Artaxerxes are all titulary names.
    Parthians too: Surena was the name of a clan. According to Wikipedia several later Roman histographers states that Surena also was a title, which was hereditary in a certain family. But maybe one of them just got it the wrong way round (the function became synonymous with the family) and the others copied this mistake from him.
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