Marian Reforms

[JetMonk1]

So, after working long and hard for quite a while to try and get a character with the required traits for the reforms, I finally got them! But I... I am a bit disappointed to be honest.

The base stats for the Reformed Legions arn't all that much better than Princeps and the options for various recruitment selections in Italy are virtually none now. Between Town Watch, Reformed Cohorts and Vet Cohorts... well... that's just about it. I know that the Romans relied pretty heavily on other peoples to provide cavalry and such, so I understand the elimination of Equites (which were horrid anyway) but lament the loss of the Equites Extraordinarii, Pedantes, and Velites. Am I forever doomed to recruiting mercenaries if I want hard hitting cavalry, skirmishers, and assault infantry now? Also, without Triarii I am not sure what I am going to do about repelling enemy cavalry, other than throwing in a meat grinder of legions.

All in all, am I missing something... or are the Reforms actually a downgrade? I expected to be able to start fielding some really hard core awesome infantry but found out that I get repackaged Princeps, minus any ability to field spear users, skirmishers, or hard hitting cavalry.

[Mulceber]

The Marian Reforms effectively eliminated the property qualifications for service in the legions. The reforms did not increase the quality of legionaries, but just made them more plentiful. They effectively meant that the state would supply the legionary's equipment. As a result, the legions were all equipped equally and terms such as "triarius" "velis", etc. became mere names. Also, Equites Extraordinarii and Pedites Extraordinarii were supplied by the Italian Allies. What with the Social War that came ~1 decade after Marius' reforms, all of the Allies were citizens. So it's just a matter of accuracy. I think you're forgetting some of your options though:

1. auxiliary cavalry can now be recruited outside of Italy - Try upgrading some of the factional MIC's outside of Italy and you'll find them.

2. for assault infantry you want antesignani - these are available in pretty much all upgraded factional MIC's and are quite good.

3. for archers/peltists I recommend using units from the regional MIC - particularly cretan archers, which are quite frankly better than the skirmishers/archer produced by Roma.

4. But the biggest advantage that you seem to be completely overlooking is that NOW YOU DON'T NEED TO RECRUIT/RETRAIN ALL YOUR UNITS IN ITALY. That alone makes Roman expansion far easier as you don't have to ferry armies back and forth from Italy to the military hotzones. Also, let's face it, post-Marian armies are just plain awesome because their advent is closely associated with all the fun political turmoil of the late Republic. So if you were expecting a unit upgrade, I think you were operating under false assumptions. Instead what you get is the (not inconsiderable) advantage of being able to recruit outside Italy and the veneer of the Late Republic. -M

[Blxz]

Also I want to add that the biggest improvement with the reforms is the ability to recruit within the historical borders of the empire (or near enough). This is a huge increase in recruitment and retraining ability. Quite possibly the single biggest advantage the romans get from their reforms.

[Mulceber]

Sorry Blxz, as soon as I got done posting I realized I'd forgotten that major point. So I think we were typing at the same time. -M

[Ca Putt]

after those qualified answers I'd like say soething aswell ^^

Am I forever doomed to recruiting mercenaries if I want hard hitting cavalry, skirmishers, and assault infantry now?

Auxillaries, Auxillaries, but tbh as PedEX and EquEx both are Auxillaries the main thing that changed is that you have to get them outside of italy as those italic allies now are Romans and thus Cohors Reformata.

Also, without Triarii I am not sure what I am going to do about repelling enemy cavalry(?)

that probablywasone of the problems the Romans actually faced in the east and (much) later in the northeast.

(...) other than throwing in a meat grinder of legions.

It's the roman way of doing things. So, as you can retrain your main troops virtually everywhere, do so.

Yet as pointed out before you seemto have overseen/underrated the antesignani which actually fill 3 roles at once: (very heavy) skirmishers, shock troops(tho personally I think Cohors Reformata and evocatido that job fine aswell ) and ("light" yeah right ) Spearmen.

Considering that Thorakitai are considered the latter two and A, are better/even on all accounts than them(ok they have less charge, larger spaceing, less mass and are less trained but wth) they are quite usefull. Plus they are Very hardy which makes them to even betterheavy skirmishers than Thureophoroi (who I consider Cavalry catchers).

If all fails you still have your regional MIC which can pump out myriads of different units.

[JetMonk1]

Thanks for the replies guys! After playing a bit further I have figured it all out, thanks to your help!

[Julianus]

I always wonder why so many people got the idea from somewhere that Marian legions are supposed to be superior to Polybian ones. Marius did not reform the army because he was unhappy about its effectiveness, no one could say that to an army that already conquered the Mediterranean, just that Rome could no longer get enough of them due to social and economical reasons.