Midgardsaga III [Concluded]

[Reenk Roink]

Somebody knew who b_ray was beyond all doubt, else why use two Jotun on him.

I wasn't killed by the Jotun. This doesn't contradict the implications of the first comment, but may have implications as to who did.

I'm never going to be able to shake my impression of Romanic as scummy after what he pulled on me today.

Given b_ray's last PM to me, there's an obvious question he needs to ask Sigurd.

More in the morning.

Thanks Renata,

Checkmate Romanic

[Romanic]

Thanks Renata,

Checkmate Romanic

Yeah, well Renata is wrong. If I was a Jotun, I would not have pressured her like I did, since half the players are dead and no Jotun were found. My PIS case on her was good, and I gave her the opportunity to defend herself, or face a public case. If it's her interpretation that I am scummy, very well then, I'll answer the charges, lynch me for it. But I think she should reconsider, after going over the fact that she's been killed. Being pissed off doesn't help you analyze stuff.

[Renata]

I would like to know who knew about b_ray or could have drawn a very certain correct conclusion based on what they did know. I'd like to see that discussed in excruciating detail. As far as I know you (romanic) were not in that group, but that's only as far as I know.

I understand your defense against my impression of you entirely, save your characterization of your case as good. It was not good. What it was was certain townie-vote bait. Townies don't even see PIS cases usually, for all that they love to vote for them. But scum do, because they're the ones who know when a townie has gotten it right. You made a mistake pushing me that way, if you are town.

b_ray's orders from last night might have an impact on who could have killed him, or they might not; I don't know exactly. For the moment ATPG looks as good a choice for Jotun as any.

Town isn't going to win this game, but at least the end looks to be entertaining.

[TinCow]

I would like to know who knew about b_ray or could have drawn a very certain correct conclusion based on what they did know.

I knew, he protected me and told me so. I'm pretty sure that Arnvid Torarinsson knew as well, though I have no idea who that is. B_Ray also told me that he was trying to expand his 'network', which implies other people. I assumed it was ATPG's group, but that was just a guess and I have no actual evidence of it.

[Romanic]

I would like to know who knew about b_ray or could have drawn a very certain correct conclusion based on what they did know. I'd like to see that discussed in excruciating detail. As far as I know you (romanic) were not in that group, but that's only as far as I know.

Well, you're right about me not knowing B_Ray's identity, and I sure would like to hear who knew about it.

I understand your defense against my impression of you entirely, save your characterization of your case as good. It was not good. What it was was certain townie-vote bait. Townies don't even see PIS cases usually, for all that they love to vote for them. But scum do, because they're the ones who know when a townie has gotten it right. You made a mistake pushing me that way, if you are town.

That's your opinion, but as I've said to you in chat:
1) Your assumption that the kill order was matching the dead player list, was odd to me because Sigurd isn't clearly showing who is who, and I figured there was a reason behind it, rather than it being obvious, hence a PIS accusation at you. (Renata's #411 post, for those who aren't following)
2) You were not as active as you use to be when you're Town. This has been a scumtell for you in some games - I can dig some games where you were "inactive" (or less active, in your case), and you were scum.
3) No real reasons to believe otherwise (that you were not scum).
4) And an aggravating factor against you about this game (you know what I'm talking about).

So, "if I was Town", the pressure made a lot of sense to me, call it a mistake if you want, but it's not in my opinion. Your claim should have helped us, since the alternative was me making a public case on you, which could have been far worse than just me knowing your identity. I gave you a choice, and you decided to reveal your identity. Now of course it looks bad since you are dead, but all I can say is that I have nothing to do with your death. Others knew about your identity so meh, it must be one of them, or perhaps a shot in the dark, though 2 kings and 1 Aesir dying implies otherwise.

[Reenk Roink]

Renata's death is the only one iffy when it comes to Atpg I think. I mean, why are you all surprised B_ray got owned? One of his first posts was making explicit how important to the town he was. Believer's death doesn't seem to be connected to Atpg, despite his FoS.

A lot is in Atpg's favor, and while there are still some things we want to know (EVERYONE he has been talking to, his claimed kingdom), I have a gut feeling that Atpg is a king, and the last thing we want to do is follow in the Aesir's footsteps and kill our important roles. This is EXACTLY why we needed new gods. Ascension is salvation.

Seriously Aesir, you guys were huge liabilities in this game.

The good news is DE and especially Tratorix should be left alone now.

Now, I don't like Romanic, but I'm also wondering about Khazaar. Does he look strong to you guys? I know GH had a low score but still...

[Reenk Roink]

autolycus, robbiecon, Romanic, fluffy, Khaazar are people we should be looking at

edit: Khaazar looks clean from the writeup, and Romanic is a trooper

[Reenk Roink]

unvote, vote: autolycus

[Earthling]

Any townies that are listening at all, ought to lynch Roink. That's the best we'll get out of today, but at least it's not hurting the town. You don't need to reveal a single thing about yourselves or put yourselves in more danger, just quote my post here and lynch him for his annoying little ascension cult.

There are more kingdoms than I thought so no clue how many actual Kings there are. One could be a cover role if there are like 6 Kings, that's certainly true. And anyone who has information on the Law Speaker or the Usurper and more characters like that should speak up to help the town.

As for actual townie analysis of the votes and writeups, ATPG and Khazaar both look very townie, considering they didn't try to save themselves from a possible lynch and voted for a cult recruit instead. (It's funny that Renata, B_Ray, and Death is Yonder lynched khaan there though). Roink/Andres/WE are not to be overlooked though, get rid of some of Loki & crew and we'll either take them down with us or force them into something against the Jotun.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Renata's death is the only one iffy when it comes to Atpg I think. I mean, why are you all surprised B_ray got owned? One of his first posts was making explicit how important to the town he was. Believer's death doesn't seem to be connected to Atpg, despite his FoS.

A lot is in Atpg's favor, and while there are still some things we want to know (EVERYONE he has been talking to, his claimed kingdom), I have a gut feeling that Atpg is a king, and the last thing we want to do is follow in the Aesir's footsteps and kill our important roles. This is EXACTLY why we needed new gods. Ascension is salvation.

If it will help, I will tell you exactly when each person claimed to me, and how many people who claimed to me are still alive.

My kingdom is obvious from the holmgang scene I was in.

I will die before revealing any roles. For the record, every person who claimed to me, whose role was inquired about by someone else, I obtained permission from that person to share the role or I told them to go ask said person themselves. Even claimed Kings who wanted to know about other Kings I didn't budge on, I told them to go ask.

I was not the leak. The leak was everywhere. Everyone who would not shut up about their role.

[White_eyes:D]

I have slain my white whale.
Unvote:Pizzaguy Vote:autolycus

[Tratorix]

Well, that's boring. I was expecting to get at least some entertainment value out of this lynch. ATPG, if you tell us when people revealed to you and who. The only people who should be left out are any living kings. Getting down to the time when we have to lay our cards on the table if the town is gonna have a chance. I mean, were probably going to lose if we keep going the way we're going.

[Earthling]

1) Why Loki isn't a good lynch.

He probably is. The question is whether Andres is a good lynch. Andres might not actually be Loki, or if the cult is separate might have a trick up his sleeve that we would yet see. If you could actually get people to follow along and not go crazy with other challenges, forcing Andres plus [second suspect] into Holmgang would be smart though.

2) Why TinCow, actually Gyda, isn't a good suspect.

Only his word to go on and the assumption the princess isn't evil. This is more likely the more we can confirm about the Usurper King, but that's going to strongly depend on a living player who knows the information being able to share it. However, it is true that the Jotun literally killed only pro-Town gods for a while. The Jotun might kill him tonight, they just didn't have time before.

3) What is ascension and why we should bother about it.

Some cult thing. They opposed the Aesir, at least. We have guaranteed, admitted cultists we could lynch here basically, but it's hard to say what their goals would actually accomplish if they followed through, if they were going to challenge the Jotun or Aesir or Loki or some combination of that.

I was not the leak. The leak was everywhere. Everyone who would not shut up about their role.

I'm not shutting up about my role and I died night one, but someone needs to at least try on the town's behalf here.

Look, if you're a townie just put aside suicidal brinkmanship tendencies and get an easy lynch on the cult today while we still have the votes. We won't get a Jotun today with that, true, but it's less of a risk and would spare yourself or other townies at least a little more time. As long as the town can keep at least one King alive and protected or something, they could outvote the Jotun so it's not over yet, but might be necessary to cut down on cult here.

[Reenk Roink]

If it will help, I will tell you exactly when each person claimed to me, and how many people who claimed to me are still alive.

That would be helpful. The times more so than the alive (I think we got that).

I was not the leak. The leak was everywhere. Everyone who would not shut up about their role.

Yup, this is one of the main reasons I don't think it's you. Believer's death was bizzare, and B_ray's was coming. Renata's is still weird though. She was mum on things.

We know glyphz is a king and if you're a king, only one more king remains. Also Loki and Gyda are alive. So we likely only have 2 rounds to win this game...

The simple fact is, if we lynch Atpg we do risk killing a legit king. We could lose this game in one round then (3 kills has happened before).

If not, we are still likely boned, but who knows, maybe we hit Jotun with this lynch, Andres kills another Jotun, and we lynch the last one next round. It is technically possible to win if we leave Atpg alone and he's a king. It doesn't seem so likely it is if not...

[Renata]

4) And an aggravating factor against you about this game (you know what I'm talking about).

Actually I don't.

So, "if I was Town", the pressure made a lot of sense to me, call it a mistake if you want, but it's not in my opinion. Your claim should have helped us, since the alternative was me making a public case on you, which could have been far worse than just me knowing your identity. I gave you a choice, and you decided to reveal your identity. Now of course it looks bad since you are dead, but all I can say is that I have nothing to do with your death. Others knew about your identity so meh, it must be one of them, or perhaps a shot in the dark, though 2 kings and 1 Aesir dying implies otherwise.

Depends on whether or not the Jotun and the other killers are collaborating. Since there's no way to know that, I can't be bothered thinking on it.

You're obviously receptive to the idea that b_ray's manner of death was meaningful, given there's no known connection of you yourself to b_ray's exact identity. Tell me what you think then about the idea that ATPG is refraining from discussing the person who gave him b_ray's role PM because he's concerned it will then come down to a choice of one of the two of them. That he is bringing up the "one of kings/champions is guilty" thing (although undoubtedly correct) as a way of getting in one more mislynch (and of a king/champion, bonus -- though it hardly matters) before that decision becomes an issue.

Tell me what you think, Romanic.

[TheLastDays]

Tell me what you think then about the idea that ATPG is refraining from discussing the person who gave him b_ray's role PM because he's concerned it will then come down to a choice of one of the two of them

I did.

At that point I was trying to figure out if I could trust B_Ray and I had been talking to ATPG already. If ATPG isn't scum I don't think I did any harm with it, I didn't talk to anyone else about B_Rays claims. If ATPG is scum I was just one of the players who willingly handed him the game...

Now I want to openly ask a question that I asked ATPG about B_Rays PM. He told me he protected me and TinCow the night that Arnvid Torarinsson was attacked and survived a night attack. That's why he asked me if I was Arnvid and I told him yes. But the truth is, I am not. Believer was Arnvid Torarinsson. So, how did Believer survive the attack that night, since he wasn't protected by B_Ray at all?

Also, if Andres/Loki is protown and he's the killer that does the crazed people why is he now responsible for the death of three kings?!

[Renata]

I doubt that Loki is protown -- if he is, he could clearly have used just a tad bit more of that townie networking that everyone's so down on. I just have a hard time seeing him as Jotun given the patterns in the writeups.

(This means nothing about Andres specifically, who could be a lying liar who lies.)

Believer probably survived due to being hopped up on Loki-juice.

[B-Wing]

That's why he asked me if I was Arnvid and I told him yes. But the truth is, I am not.

[Romanic]

You're obviously receptive to the idea that b_ray's manner of death was meaningful, given there's no known connection of you yourself to b_ray's exact identity. Tell me what you think then about the idea that ATPG is refraining from discussing the person who gave him b_ray's role PM because he's concerned it will then come down to a choice of one of the two of them. That he is bringing up the "one of kings/champions is guilty" thing (although undoubtedly correct) as a way of getting in one more mislynch (and of a king/champion, bonus -- though it hardly matters) before that decision becomes an issue.

Tell me what you think, Romanic.

I don' t know what to think about ATPG, or the fact that he neglected to reveal who gave him B_Ray's identity. As you said, we have no way of knowing if your kill, and Believer's, are all Jotun related (probably not) so accusing him of killing 2 Kings and 1 Aesir last night is probably wrong. And that he would be behind B_Ray's death alone is also unclear, since others have mentioned that B_Ray outed himself somewhat in the thread (though I have not verified this, honestly).

Part of me wants really bad to accuse ATPG, but I find it's too easy, I have to fight the urge to.

[Earthling]

And that he would be behind B_Ray's death alone is also unclear, since others have mentioned that B_Ray outed himself somewhat in the thread (though I have not verified this, honestly).

I have, it was just as several people said that B_Ray said, "I'm important and have to live" openly and obviously. ATPG commented on it, Roink quoted B_Ray and asked the Jotun to kill him, that was all Days ago. Anyone as a Jotun could have figured that out, and they were already busy killing the other gods. The big break I think, because it wasn't obvious to a basic townie or reading the thread like me, is knowing that there were three town gods (Thor, Odin, and Heimdall) plus Loki, but the Jotun could have known that from the start anyway.

Renata is making a lot of sense and it's a really good point that other than B_Ray the other kills were not necessarily Jotun. And in short it's not a guarantee the Jotun didn't find out about B_Ray on their own too.

Lynch on Diamondeye is funny as anything though.

[Renata]

And white_eyes is way too happy right now to be a townie.

[Reenk Roink]

And white_eyes is way too happy right now to be a townie.

White eyes will be the last Jotun to die due to his help.

Atpg has the fact that classical investigated him as a bit of an alibi, though Atpg claims that himself. Vote: Romanic Quote your role PM. Because you'll die either in the lynch or at night.

[Renata]

White eyes will be the last Jotun to die due to his help.

Atpg has the fact that classical investigated him as a bit of an alibi, though Atpg claims that himself. Vote: Romanic Quote your role PM. Because you'll die either in the lynch or at night.

It's not much of an alibi, night zero inactivity. If you were AtPG and Jotun with two other guys, and acutely aware of how you get meta-gamed, which of you three would be active on night zero and which not?

I don't know why I'm arguing, really, I have no idea who the bad guys are.

Anyway, from the post previous to yours (doing this all out of order), TinCow also knew about b_ray: I had forgotten about b_ray's protection. But that's probably irrelevant, and ATPG knows why. He needs to discuss the person he got the role PM from.

[autolycus]

I'm still betting on Gyda being scum. She seems awfully good with a sword, not just surviving but actually killing her attacker, who was a king, if I'm reading the write-up accurately, and she doesn't want her mission being interrupted. What's her mission. Could it be create conflict and chaos? Because that's what she seems to have done.

[TinCow]

I'm still betting on Gyda being scum. She seems awfully good with a sword, not just surviving but actually killing her attacker, who was a king, if I'm reading the write-up accurately,

You can thank my father for that ability. He trained his daughter well.

and she doesn't want her mission being interrupted. What's her mission. Could it be create conflict and chaos? Because that's what she seems to have done.

Find Jotun, avoid the guy who's trying to kill me. My weak feminine emotions have gotten the better of me and for some reason I feel bad that so many people are about to die because of me.

[White_eyes:D]

And white_eyes is way too happy right now to be a townie.

You guys messed up not me. Why should I be upset because town looks doomed?

If I was a Pro-town, I would be crying my eyes out at how bad you all dropped the ball.

Edit: Reenk, please don't make me use that line from "commando".