Midgardsaga III [Concluded]

[Renata]

I would like to know who knew about b_ray or could have drawn a very certain correct conclusion based on what they did know. I'd like to see that discussed in excruciating detail. As far as I know you (romanic) were not in that group, but that's only as far as I know.

I understand your defense against my impression of you entirely, save your characterization of your case as good. It was not good. What it was was certain townie-vote bait. Townies don't even see PIS cases usually, for all that they love to vote for them. But scum do, because they're the ones who know when a townie has gotten it right. You made a mistake pushing me that way, if you are town.

b_ray's orders from last night might have an impact on who could have killed him, or they might not; I don't know exactly. For the moment ATPG looks as good a choice for Jotun as any.

Town isn't going to win this game, but at least the end looks to be entertaining.

[TinCow]

I would like to know who knew about b_ray or could have drawn a very certain correct conclusion based on what they did know.

I knew, he protected me and told me so. I'm pretty sure that Arnvid Torarinsson knew as well, though I have no idea who that is. B_Ray also told me that he was trying to expand his 'network', which implies other people. I assumed it was ATPG's group, but that was just a guess and I have no actual evidence of it.

[Romanic]

I would like to know who knew about b_ray or could have drawn a very certain correct conclusion based on what they did know. I'd like to see that discussed in excruciating detail. As far as I know you (romanic) were not in that group, but that's only as far as I know.

Well, you're right about me not knowing B_Ray's identity, and I sure would like to hear who knew about it.

I understand your defense against my impression of you entirely, save your characterization of your case as good. It was not good. What it was was certain townie-vote bait. Townies don't even see PIS cases usually, for all that they love to vote for them. But scum do, because they're the ones who know when a townie has gotten it right. You made a mistake pushing me that way, if you are town.

That's your opinion, but as I've said to you in chat:
1) Your assumption that the kill order was matching the dead player list, was odd to me because Sigurd isn't clearly showing who is who, and I figured there was a reason behind it, rather than it being obvious, hence a PIS accusation at you. (Renata's #411 post, for those who aren't following)
2) You were not as active as you use to be when you're Town. This has been a scumtell for you in some games - I can dig some games where you were "inactive" (or less active, in your case), and you were scum.
3) No real reasons to believe otherwise (that you were not scum).
4) And an aggravating factor against you about this game (you know what I'm talking about).

So, "if I was Town", the pressure made a lot of sense to me, call it a mistake if you want, but it's not in my opinion. Your claim should have helped us, since the alternative was me making a public case on you, which could have been far worse than just me knowing your identity. I gave you a choice, and you decided to reveal your identity. Now of course it looks bad since you are dead, but all I can say is that I have nothing to do with your death. Others knew about your identity so meh, it must be one of them, or perhaps a shot in the dark, though 2 kings and 1 Aesir dying implies otherwise.

[Reenk Roink]

Renata's death is the only one iffy when it comes to Atpg I think. I mean, why are you all surprised B_ray got owned? One of his first posts was making explicit how important to the town he was. Believer's death doesn't seem to be connected to Atpg, despite his FoS.

A lot is in Atpg's favor, and while there are still some things we want to know (EVERYONE he has been talking to, his claimed kingdom), I have a gut feeling that Atpg is a king, and the last thing we want to do is follow in the Aesir's footsteps and kill our important roles. This is EXACTLY why we needed new gods. Ascension is salvation.

Seriously Aesir, you guys were huge liabilities in this game.

The good news is DE and especially Tratorix should be left alone now.

Now, I don't like Romanic, but I'm also wondering about Khazaar. Does he look strong to you guys? I know GH had a low score but still...

[Reenk Roink]

autolycus, robbiecon, Romanic, fluffy, Khaazar are people we should be looking at

edit: Khaazar looks clean from the writeup, and Romanic is a trooper

[Reenk Roink]

unvote, vote: autolycus

[Romanic]

No disrespect Reenk, but your suspect list is lacking quality.

autolycus, 8 posts - easy target.
robbiecon, 5 posts - easy target.
Khazaar, 5 posts - easy target.
Fluffy, 14 posts - and always an easy target for his playing style.
Romanic - I can tell you are wrong.

So unless you settle for me, you will pick a lurker and I think it's a bad idea - We're not getting pwned by one of these. These guys are just pawns, and as Jotun, they're probably too afraid to say anything, risking to be caught. Someone else is following this game enough to make informed decisions. Sure, they can be Jotun, but is this who you really want to lynch today, given the current "losing" trend?

Better targets are Andres, TinCow, ATPG, if you're looking for a suspect with some meat around him.

Andres: He claimed Loki. Sure he was Town in Midgardsaga 2, but in this game he was out to kill Heimdall (I think) and Loki is also known to be evil, trickster. Call me crazy but I'm starting to believe Earthling's theory about Loki mind-controlling people to attack others.

TinCow: because he's Gyda, and even though he's a princess, it's odd that he's still alive after CH revealed him. His scan claim conveninently absolve Loki of any crime, for being inactive on Night 2. Also, if I read correctly, she's the reason we're on the verge of war. (ref, Post #2 - "This serf woman had told the exact words of Gyda’s decline: “Why should I marry someone as petty as you. Come back when you have conquered the whole of Norway”. "

ATPG: The information he had about Believer, Renata and perhaps B_Ray, make it possible that he's pulled these kills tonight.


Now, personally I don't know who I should vote for. I haven't been active as much as I wanted in this game, and I've recently realized that I've skimmed too much, after reading the word "Gyda" in the very first writeup, And when you talk of ascension, I'm not sure what you refer to, except somewhat recalling that you had to win a fight to get it. I thought it could be a joke, but I'm not sure anymore. All this to say that I'm confused about the game, and not quite my usual confident self when it comes to place a vote, so perhaps I'm totally wrong about the above suspects, and why they are suspects in the first place.

Feel free to enlighten me on

1) Why Loki isn't a good lynch.
2) Why TinCow, actually Gyda, isn't a good suspect.
3) What is ascension and why we should bother about it.

[Earthling]

Any townies that are listening at all, ought to lynch Roink. That's the best we'll get out of today, but at least it's not hurting the town. You don't need to reveal a single thing about yourselves or put yourselves in more danger, just quote my post here and lynch him for his annoying little ascension cult.

There are more kingdoms than I thought so no clue how many actual Kings there are. One could be a cover role if there are like 6 Kings, that's certainly true. And anyone who has information on the Law Speaker or the Usurper and more characters like that should speak up to help the town.

As for actual townie analysis of the votes and writeups, ATPG and Khazaar both look very townie, considering they didn't try to save themselves from a possible lynch and voted for a cult recruit instead. (It's funny that Renata, B_Ray, and Death is Yonder lynched khaan there though). Roink/Andres/WE are not to be overlooked though, get rid of some of Loki & crew and we'll either take them down with us or force them into something against the Jotun.

[Reenk Roink]

Do you not understand that the cult and Loki and his group are two different entities?

[Earthling]

Whatever the case the true Norsemen in this town should man up and kill you. It'll force the rest of your lackeys to actually work against the Jotun and/or Loki, else the town will take you out with them (because the town needs to get some of the other sides fighting against each other, and no such thing will work against the Jotun, so they have to take you out).

One other observation on the countries now, as all of the men and even the cover roles of Gods/Jotun presumably are aligned with some country, even if they didn't know it, there would be some symmetry if there were seven countries and 5 people per country for; that would mean our usurper King is very likely present though.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Renata's death is the only one iffy when it comes to Atpg I think. I mean, why are you all surprised B_ray got owned? One of his first posts was making explicit how important to the town he was. Believer's death doesn't seem to be connected to Atpg, despite his FoS.

A lot is in Atpg's favor, and while there are still some things we want to know (EVERYONE he has been talking to, his claimed kingdom), I have a gut feeling that Atpg is a king, and the last thing we want to do is follow in the Aesir's footsteps and kill our important roles. This is EXACTLY why we needed new gods. Ascension is salvation.

If it will help, I will tell you exactly when each person claimed to me, and how many people who claimed to me are still alive.

My kingdom is obvious from the holmgang scene I was in.

I will die before revealing any roles. For the record, every person who claimed to me, whose role was inquired about by someone else, I obtained permission from that person to share the role or I told them to go ask said person themselves. Even claimed Kings who wanted to know about other Kings I didn't budge on, I told them to go ask.

I was not the leak. The leak was everywhere. Everyone who would not shut up about their role.

[White_eyes:D]

I have slain my white whale.
Unvote:Pizzaguy Vote:autolycus

[Tratorix]

Well, that's boring. I was expecting to get at least some entertainment value out of this lynch. ATPG, if you tell us when people revealed to you and who. The only people who should be left out are any living kings. Getting down to the time when we have to lay our cards on the table if the town is gonna have a chance. I mean, were probably going to lose if we keep going the way we're going.

[White_eyes:D]

Too many lurkers are keeping to themselves for that to work....we need to lynch a few of them.

[Tratorix]

Too many lurkers are keeping to themselves for that to work....we need to lynch a few of them.

More information will help. We've got, I figure 2-3 lynches left, too late to start poking lurkers, we've got to make them count.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Well, that's boring. I was expecting to get at least some entertainment value out of this lynch. ATPG, if you tell us when people revealed to you and who. The only people who should be left out are any living kings. Getting down to the time when we have to lay our cards on the table if the town is gonna have a chance. I mean, were probably going to lose if we keep going the way we're going.

Probably isn't the word you should be using. The way we are going, the game is over.

I haven't bothered pointing fingers because the only people I can point at as suspects now are the remaining kings and champions, because, as was my theory since day freaking one, I suspected ONE OF THEM was a Jotun.

I shared my theory, told people not to trust champions or kings. That's at least 12 proven pro-town roles in a game this size. And, as someone mentioned to me recently, there was a champion TINCOW who was evil in another Midgard game. So we were already aware this was a problem and a potential threat.

The champions and kings I spoke to all seemed to want to know about each other. The champions already knew their own kings, and were less valuable roles, so they stuck their necks out and talked to people. Later I found out some of those champions were actually the Kings, and vice-versa. So those people who were risky with their roles were the people who should not have been.

The gods, we know, claimed publicly in one form or another. B_Ray I even linked to as a reason why we shouldn't lynch him. I suggested I'd follow up on that or something. We almost did lynch him that day. Classical stuck his head out in a holmgang, took a risk and got exposed. And so on.

Believer contacted me early and I spoke to him early due to his silly theory that I killed Earthling. I explained all the reasons that was false. I also shared with him my theory about the Jotun infiltrator being a king or champion. I was inquiring to see who would say what about that theory. Basically nobody bought it.

So B claimed champion. I found out from someone who knew Khaan was a champion not to lynch him that day with B_Ray, then he got lynched on another day. Through that contact I was told that khaan was either a champion or a king, so I assumed he could be either.

I obviously know myself and my champion. (start)
I knew Believer, and through him, his champion. (Round one or two at the latest)
I know Khaan and his King. (Round two-ish)
I was scanned by classical_hero on N1, and so I knew him. I knew B_Ray and the other gods from public events. (Round one)
I knew all about Tincow as well due to the "her" thing and Tincow flinching in response to that. No Tincow I saw it, I was just kind enough to be quiet about it. (When that happened, forget which round)
I found out I think from classical_hero that someone else was a champion. Eventually, that champion's king claimed to me and confirmed that that person was a champion. This was only recently. That king was Renata. (Last round I think)
Believer and another "king" had been talking and claimed to each other. (Before last round)
Renata and another "king" had been talking and claimed to each other. (Last round)
DIY was murdered, I never knew about him.
Stuka we lynched.
Fairly certain I know who the remaining king and champion are due to deduction though I've had no direct contact with the king.
I learned about a certain god who is still alive through Believer's champion. I haven't contacted said God privately, though my inbox is always open. (Couple rounds ago)
Andres well he claimed publicly. I've no reason to specifically doubt his claim, although the remaining gods could have switched identities just to throw off the Jotun.


I am not a Jotun, and the only way you'll know that for sure is when I am dead I suppose. That is a bad lynch and today may be your last shot at saving the game. However, you do not have any good, serious leads that I can see, and if I were to make a suggestion that is on my mind it would probably just make things worse because it banks on the Kings/Champions having a Jotun among them theory.

I do not want to further contribute to this appalling performance. Although I am pretty sure blame for this turn of events does not rest on my shoulders, due to my role I was personally powerless to stop it, and I warned people about their private claiming to anyone besides me, including the gods and other kings/champs.

That said, public claiming was just as bad and people did that too, including myself, but that's only because of the Warman challenge that revealed me as something I could only claim to be a king or champion because I had no god role I could claim, no cover. Besides, at one point we did have a god doing protections.



As for what I think you should do today, I think you should realize that your game, such as it is, is over, with a single caveat. You absolutely must lynch a Jotun today. And I'll be honest, if it is the person I think it is, they played a winning game and you're done. Since even the gods seem to not have any idea what they're doing with their accusations, or they are following a goal which pertains only to them, I'd advise you to spin the wheel, pick a card, roll the dice, and lynch anyone.

Anyone.

King, champion, god, whoever. And just you pray that that person is a Jotun. Not all the townie power roles are going to be townies, kiddies.



I suppose you want me to pick someone. I'll tell you this much: I'm a better lynch than a king or a pro-town god. Who is a better lynch than me, I haven't a clue and I'll admit it.

The person I want to make die is a claimed King. I don't trust them. But I'm also not going to point my finger at said person.

[White_eyes:D]

The person I want to make die is a claimed King. I don't trust them. But I'm also not going to point my finger at said person.

So, glyphz is your suspect?

[Death is yonder]

If it is not addressed in the OP, then I guess it is not prohibited.

Wonderful! How opportune.

Probably isn't the word you should be using. The way we are going, the game is over.

I obviously know myself and my champion. (start)
I knew Believer, and through him, his champion. (Round one or two at the latest)
I know Khaan and his King. (Round two-ish)
I was scanned by classical_hero on N1, and so I knew him. I knew B_Ray and the other gods from public events. (Round one)
I knew all about Tincow as well due to the "her" thing and Tincow flinching in response to that. No Tincow I saw it, I was just kind enough to be quiet about it. (When that happened, forget which round)
I found out I think from classical_hero that someone else was a champion. Eventually, that champion's king claimed to me and confirmed that that person was a champion. This was only recently. That king was Renata. (Last round I think)
Believer and another "king" had been talking and claimed to each other. (Before last round)
Renata and another "king" had been talking and claimed to each other. (Last round)
DIY was murdered, I never knew about him.
Stuka we lynched.
Fairly certain I know who the remaining king and champion are due to deduction though I've had no direct contact with the king.
I learned about a certain god who is still alive through Believer's champion. I haven't contacted said God privately, though my inbox is always open. (Couple rounds ago)
Andres well he claimed publicly. I've no reason to specifically doubt his claim, although the remaining gods could have switched identities just to throw off the Jotun.

The person I want to make die is a claimed King. I don't trust them. But I'm also not going to point my finger at said person.

Do you have anything else to say ATPG?

I suppose I know why Believer thinks ATPG should be lynched: He had a lot of information, and I guess Believer thinks he could have pulled this move, killing 2 kings and a power role, on the same night.

ATPG knew Renata's and Believer's identities, as per our private chats, but I'm still wondering if he would have played it this way. If he's Jotun, we're in trouble anyway, he knows too much.

Correction, 3 kings on two nights perhaps.

ATPG needs to reveal more and stop lying (/earthling ) or else he needs to be lynched.

[Renata]

The gods, we know, claimed publicly in one form or another. B_Ray I even linked to as a reason why we shouldn't lynch him. I suggested I'd follow up on that or something. We almost did lynch him that day.

I guess nobody even noticed that Believer was ALSO on the docket that day. At least I did one thing right this game. My vote change saved them both.

I was inquiring to see who would say what about that theory. Basically nobody bought it.

Hah. You should have spoken to me. We could have had a beautifully paranoia-filled chat.

I am not a Jotun, and the only way you'll know that for sure is when I am dead I suppose. That is a bad lynch and today may be your last shot at saving the game. However, you do not have any good, serious leads that I can see, and if I were to make a suggestion that is on my mind it would probably just make things worse because it banks on the Kings/Champions having a Jotun among them theory.

Explain why knowledge of b_ray's exact role is not a pre-requisite for the Jotun to have used two killers on him. You knew. The person who gave you his role PM knew. Who else, or why doesn't it matter?

[Earthling]

1) Why Loki isn't a good lynch.

He probably is. The question is whether Andres is a good lynch. Andres might not actually be Loki, or if the cult is separate might have a trick up his sleeve that we would yet see. If you could actually get people to follow along and not go crazy with other challenges, forcing Andres plus [second suspect] into Holmgang would be smart though.

2) Why TinCow, actually Gyda, isn't a good suspect.

Only his word to go on and the assumption the princess isn't evil. This is more likely the more we can confirm about the Usurper King, but that's going to strongly depend on a living player who knows the information being able to share it. However, it is true that the Jotun literally killed only pro-Town gods for a while. The Jotun might kill him tonight, they just didn't have time before.

3) What is ascension and why we should bother about it.

Some cult thing. They opposed the Aesir, at least. We have guaranteed, admitted cultists we could lynch here basically, but it's hard to say what their goals would actually accomplish if they followed through, if they were going to challenge the Jotun or Aesir or Loki or some combination of that.

I was not the leak. The leak was everywhere. Everyone who would not shut up about their role.

I'm not shutting up about my role and I died night one, but someone needs to at least try on the town's behalf here.

Look, if you're a townie just put aside suicidal brinkmanship tendencies and get an easy lynch on the cult today while we still have the votes. We won't get a Jotun today with that, true, but it's less of a risk and would spare yourself or other townies at least a little more time. As long as the town can keep at least one King alive and protected or something, they could outvote the Jotun so it's not over yet, but might be necessary to cut down on cult here.

[Tratorix]

Look, if you're a townie just put aside suicidal brinkmanship tendencies and get an easy lynch on the cult today while we still have the votes. We won't get a Jotun today with that, true, but it's less of a risk and would spare yourself or other townies at least a little more time. As long as the town can keep at least one King alive and protected or something, they could outvote the Jotun so it's not over yet, but might be necessary to cut down on cult here.

Yes, real winning strategy here. Let's not bother with the Jotun, lets target a vaguely defined cult which may or may not be entirely made up.

[Romanic]

Alright, let's stop a minute. Tratorix saying the cult is "vaguely defined" is worrisome.

I searched this thread and the first result for the word "cult" was about 24 hours ago, by Earthling. And most, if not all, other posts reffering to a cult (beside Earthling's) could be taken as jokes.

No offense Earthling, but I'd like to hear someone else confirm this cult exists, unless you can personally explain how you know this, and/or give a detailed explanation why this cult really exists.

[Reenk Roink]

If it will help, I will tell you exactly when each person claimed to me, and how many people who claimed to me are still alive.

That would be helpful. The times more so than the alive (I think we got that).

I was not the leak. The leak was everywhere. Everyone who would not shut up about their role.

Yup, this is one of the main reasons I don't think it's you. Believer's death was bizzare, and B_ray's was coming. Renata's is still weird though. She was mum on things.

We know glyphz is a king and if you're a king, only one more king remains. Also Loki and Gyda are alive. So we likely only have 2 rounds to win this game...

The simple fact is, if we lynch Atpg we do risk killing a legit king. We could lose this game in one round then (3 kills has happened before).

If not, we are still likely boned, but who knows, maybe we hit Jotun with this lynch, Andres kills another Jotun, and we lynch the last one next round. It is technically possible to win if we leave Atpg alone and he's a king. It doesn't seem so likely it is if not...

[Tratorix]

If not, we are still likely boned, but who knows, maybe we hit Jotun with this lynch, Andres kills another Jotun, and we lynch the last one next round. It is technically possible to win if we leave Atpg alone and he's a king. It doesn't seem like it is if not..

Unvote: ATPG I'm almost hoping he is Jotun at this point, at least the idea of half the games kings revealing to a Jotun is kind of funny. Vote: abstain till I switch it sometime.

[Romanic]

If not, we are still likely boned, but who knows, maybe we hit Jotun with this lynch, Andres kills another Jotun, and we lynch the last one next round. It is technically possible to win if we leave Atpg alone and he's a king. It doesn't seem so likely it is if not...

So you acknowledge that Loki/Andres is killing people by manipulating them?

[Tratorix]

So you acknowledge that Loki/Andres is killing people by manipulating them?

He probably meant through Holmgang.

[Renata]

That would be helpful. The times more so than the alive (I think we got that).



Yup, this is one of the main reasons I don't think it's you. Believer's death was bizzare, and B_ray's was coming. Renata's is still weird though. She was mum on things.

Relatively speaking, yes -- I didn't reveal my role to ATPG until yesterday (given ATPG's suggested he will confirm these times, I guess it's OK to say). But you may be playing coy here on me?

We know glyphz is a king and if you're a king, only one more king remains. Also Loki and Gyda are alive. So we likely only have 2 rounds to win this game...

That's essentially correct. The last king could go undetected for a while, perhaps, but the odds are pretty much nil that all Jotun will be found out first.

[Renata]

4) And an aggravating factor against you about this game (you know what I'm talking about).

Actually I don't.

So, "if I was Town", the pressure made a lot of sense to me, call it a mistake if you want, but it's not in my opinion. Your claim should have helped us, since the alternative was me making a public case on you, which could have been far worse than just me knowing your identity. I gave you a choice, and you decided to reveal your identity. Now of course it looks bad since you are dead, but all I can say is that I have nothing to do with your death. Others knew about your identity so meh, it must be one of them, or perhaps a shot in the dark, though 2 kings and 1 Aesir dying implies otherwise.

Depends on whether or not the Jotun and the other killers are collaborating. Since there's no way to know that, I can't be bothered thinking on it.

You're obviously receptive to the idea that b_ray's manner of death was meaningful, given there's no known connection of you yourself to b_ray's exact identity. Tell me what you think then about the idea that ATPG is refraining from discussing the person who gave him b_ray's role PM because he's concerned it will then come down to a choice of one of the two of them. That he is bringing up the "one of kings/champions is guilty" thing (although undoubtedly correct) as a way of getting in one more mislynch (and of a king/champion, bonus -- though it hardly matters) before that decision becomes an issue.

Tell me what you think, Romanic.

[TheLastDays]

Tell me what you think then about the idea that ATPG is refraining from discussing the person who gave him b_ray's role PM because he's concerned it will then come down to a choice of one of the two of them

I did.

At that point I was trying to figure out if I could trust B_Ray and I had been talking to ATPG already. If ATPG isn't scum I don't think I did any harm with it, I didn't talk to anyone else about B_Rays claims. If ATPG is scum I was just one of the players who willingly handed him the game...

Now I want to openly ask a question that I asked ATPG about B_Rays PM. He told me he protected me and TinCow the night that Arnvid Torarinsson was attacked and survived a night attack. That's why he asked me if I was Arnvid and I told him yes. But the truth is, I am not. Believer was Arnvid Torarinsson. So, how did Believer survive the attack that night, since he wasn't protected by B_Ray at all?

Also, if Andres/Loki is protown and he's the killer that does the crazed people why is he now responsible for the death of three kings?!

[Renata]

I doubt that Loki is protown -- if he is, he could clearly have used just a tad bit more of that townie networking that everyone's so down on. I just have a hard time seeing him as Jotun given the patterns in the writeups.

(This means nothing about Andres specifically, who could be a lying liar who lies.)

Believer probably survived due to being hopped up on Loki-juice.