Merging units after battle

[Peasant Phill]

In the other TWgames (MTW and ETW) I’ve played, merging units after battles was in most cases the better option.
Say you have 2 half depleted units of 2 valour, retraining (MTW) or paying for replenishments (ETW) will result in 2 units of 1 valour for the cost of 1 new unit. Merging those same units and recruiting a new unit will result in 1 unit of 2 valour and a rookie unit at the same cost. It’s mostly accepted that the second option is better.

I’ve just started my first campaign in Shogun2 and I’ve noticed that units replenish of their own without costs (at least not that I’ve noticed).
Using the same example as above, this would mean that letting both units be replenished to 2 units of 1 valour would cost nothing while merging and recruiting a second unit would result in the recruitment cost of 1 unit.
In other words the decision whether to merge units or not isn’t as clear cut anymore as you now have factor in your finances.

Is my conclusion correct?
Do you have other thoughts about merging units?

[Vladimir]

I noticed that last night. I don't know the replenishment rate but I presume that you'd want to merge units if you couldn't afford to wait.

This looks like a nice way to eliminate the depleted unit problem TW has seen, well, forever.

[TinCow]

We can merge units in Shogun 2?

I guess that question demonstrates which option I've been using...

[econ21]

I don't know if this is new to STW2 or passed me by on earlier games, but I think you pay full upkeep for a unit regardless of how many men are in it. I guess you are paying for a full unit, but the replacements have not arrived on the frontline yet. If that is right, then having lots of depleted units would be quite a drain on your finances.

What I've tended to do is to merge depleted ashigaru, as it is quick and easy to replace them. With Samurai, I tend to let them recover to full strength, as they take longer to replace - often they are recruited only from one dedicated province - and I value experience more on them than on throwaway ashigaru.

[frogbeastegg]

Letting units replenish automatically is a nice, hands off option and I use it most of the time. The overall XP level of a unit can be reduced if it's heavily depleted and allowed to replenish by this method. That strongly implies XP is tracked on a per-man basis, same as the older games. In turn, that means each man has his own personal stats, and the displayed XP level is an average. Thus a 5XP unit will not have all men fighting at 5Xp's stats. Some will be lower, most will be at that level some may be higher.

I rarely merge units. It's a pain if your units have upgrades derived from recruitment location; it's easier and quicker to let reinforcements trickle in to a unit than it is to recruit a new unit from a province which gives upgrades and then walk it over to join the army.

[Major Robert Dump]

TinCow is right, a depleted unit costs the same as a full unit, which sort of encourages you NOT to merge experinced unit.

Furthermore, for repression purposes, a unit is a unit, whether it has 35 men or 120. Early game I like to keep depleted, experienced units as garrison while I move the full units forward to fight. Don't forget that unit replenishment are one of the biggest reasons to take road upgrades early (in addition to helping town growth)

I only merged in times of emergency when I was either broke, or a partial unit was not viable (like defending a castle)

[Major Robert Dump]

Also, (and this could be considered a game mechanic failure) you still get a replenishment turn after a fight you do defensively on the AIs turn. So if you get attacked, at the start of your next turn you will have replenished.

The reason I say it may be bad mechanics is because I think you may get a replensihment turn after your end turn but before you get attacked, so you effectively replenish twice.

On the other hand, though, I noticed that you suffer seige attrition every time you come under siege, and on legendary it is a higher rate. When I am the one sieging, they suffer no atttition if they sally out on their first urn. And when they do get attrition on their second turn, its like 3-5 dudes. I, on the other hand, suffer attrition even if I do sally out my first turn after coming under seige, and its like 8-10 I lose.

I might also point out that unlike previous TWs, purchasing a unit will give you that unit at the end of your turn, so if you get attacked after your end turn, that unit will be trained and join the fight. The AI gets the same perk.

[TinCow]

It seemed to me like all replenishment and attrition (siege and winter) occurred at the end of the entire round, namely right after the Wako faction had its go, but before control is returned to the player. Thus, it is the state of the game at the end of the Wako turn that determines whether replenishment and attrition will occur. So, if you are attacked on the AI turn in your own territory and win, then your army will replenish. However, if the same thing occurs, but a second army then besieges you (but does not assault) before the end of the AI turn, you will take attrition instead of replenishment; all that matters is the placement of the armies at that precise post-Wako moment.

[Vladimir]

I merged my first units last night (my parents were so proud!). Doing dramatically increased my cash flow. Some of the units would have taken seven turns to replenish in a newly taken castle. The additional cash flow allowed me to build several province improvements while I recruited new units that received a morale boost from the province.

It looks like replenishment's best functions are to help the AI and reduce the micromanagement of replenishing slightly depleted units

[Major Robert Dump]

Once you get better roads, plus perks with generals and the logistics title for one of your generals, some of your units will be replenisihing 20% or more a turn. I think towards my end game on Chosokabe I was getting @31 per ashigaru unit and @5 bodyguard per turn, and this was without the highest level roads. I just cannot bring myself to merge units with really high xp, although that is typically not an issue early game. Another thing I consider is how long will it be before I re-recruit the same unit, and does saving 88 koku a turn for 3 turns outweigh the 280 I have to spend to buy another one in three rounds? If I am done fighting for a while, like after capturing all of the Chosokabe island, I will disband on a mass scale

Tincow: You are right about the replenishment, I reloaded and checked from one particular busy turn I had.

As far as attrition, I guess that is the price you pay for going first. You will always suffer attrition on an immediate sally. The AI, on the other hand, will not

[Peasant Phill]

I started this thread thinking merging units was standard policy in the series that now had become a little bit less clear cut . Apparently merging units is now a neat trick you can apply but only in certain circumstances. Obviously, I'll have to change my view on the matter as I was unaware of certain mechanics that changed since ETW.

I didn't know you pay a flat upkeep regardless of depletion unlike the previous games (as far as I'm aware of). This does mean that merging 2 units into 1 is a good way to get your economy back in order after a conquest.
I also assumed that the experience was still tracked per soldier. This is a very elegant mechanic that was implemented in the early games and I see no reason why it would be changed. However, if the experience would be tracked per unit, merging would become useless as a way to acquire veteran units.
The last reason for merging still stands. 1 full unit can be more desirable than 2 depleted ones. This is of course dependent on the level of depletion and not always an easy choice.

[Vladimir]

I started this thread thinking merging units was standard policy in the series that now had become a little bit less clear cut . Apparently merging units is now a neat trick you can apply but only in certain circumstances. Obviously, I'll have to change my view on the matter as I was unaware of certain mechanics that changed since ETW.

I didn't know you pay a flat upkeep regardless of depletion unlike the previous games (as far as I'm aware of). This does mean that merging 2 units into 1 is a good way to get your economy back in order after a conquest.
I also assumed that the experience was still tracked per soldier. This is a very elegant mechanic that was implemented in the early games and I see no reason why it would be changed. However, if the experience would be tracked per unit, merging would become useless as a way to acquire veteran units.
The last reason for merging still stands. 1 full unit can be more desirable than 2 depleted ones. This is of course dependent on the level of depletion and not always an easy choice.

In my brief experience merging after a campaign is preferable; especially if you have a province that produces upgraded units. I don't know yet if units can be retrained to get the bonuses. I saved a lot of money merging units after defending against a siege sally in winter and recommend it.

I'd prefer 2, 50 spear units over 1, 100 spear unit; with Date, I can get a wonderful rear charge in.

[Jacobin]

I find at legendary you have to merge units to reduce upkeep costs at least for the first 50 turns or so.

Literally a unit of 20 yari ashigaru costs the same as one of 200 - so even if the 20 man unit has multiple experience its a no-brainer.

I also ruthlessly disband units significantly under half strength if there is no other unit to merge with.

The one thing I really do miss is not being able to put existing units back into the recruit queue to upgrade them and get them back to strength.

[econ21]

I also assumed that the experience was still tracked per soldier. This is a very elegant mechanic that was implemented in the early games and I see no reason why it would be changed. However, if the experience would be tracked per unit, merging would become useless as a way to acquire veteran units.

I think experience is still tracked per soldier, as Frogbeastegg said.

Merging units is good for cash and XP; letting them replenish is good for convenience. With a strong late game army, I just let them replenish and you can have an unstoppable juggernaut that can keep ploughing on. But when money is tight or losses are high, merging makes sense.

[Major Robert Dump]

The XP is somewhat averaged out on merging.

You get best results merging a smaller, lower xp with a larger, higher xp unit. Sometimes you can create smaller, lower xp units from merging with a unit that is almost full, meaning the smaller unit doesn't suck xp. Try no to merge a larger, lower xp unit with a small, high xp unit unless you are out of options or you just don't care.

Not being able to retrain and upgrade sucks.

However, it is a very good reason to change your capitol to a place with a smith, so all your sons and sons of vassals recruits get upgrades. I'm not sure if field prmotions get any bonuses since they appear at the location of the battle. If a smith is present in the district, then maybe, but I honestly don't remember

[econ21]

However, it is a very good reason to change your capitol to a place with a smith, so all your sons and sons of vassals recruits get upgrades. I'm not sure if field prmotions get any bonuses since they appear at the location of the battle. If a smith is present in the district, then maybe, but I honestly don't remember

That's an interesting idea - how do you change your capitol in this game? I thought there was not a button for it like in some earlier games.

[Major Robert Dump]

That's an interesting idea - how do you change your capitol in this game? I thought there was not a button for it like in some earlier games.

Beats the heck out of me, hindsight is 20/20, chock that up with the list of "things I should have done."

Other than losing your capital I have no idea, and then it seems random so unless you only own one other province u may be screwed

[TinCow]

I don't think you can manually change your capital. If you lose your capital, it will automatically be relocated for you to a nearby province, but you do not get to pick the province. When you recapture the province, your capital moves back, also without any input from the player. This actually resulted in an odd situation in my most recent Oda Legendary game. I intentionally abandoned Owari on Turn 2 and based my faction out of Mikawa. Once Owari was taken, the game moved my capital to Mikawa. I did not recapture Owari for about 25 in-game years, by which time Mikawa was heavily upgraded. Despite the fact that Mikawa had been my capital for 25 years and was huge, and I had only held Owari for a couple turns during the entire game (and even burned down a building before I left), the people were still extremely happy that I had retaken it and my capital moved back there without any unrest. Not exactly realistic, but it seems to be the way the game works.