US gubmint shutdown + default + subprime sequel?

[Koga No Goshi]

I could just as easily turn around and say your defense of the Tea Party is based on circumstantial or anecdotal cases of where they're actually coherent or avoiding overtly radical or offensive rhetoric, because with a fragmented group like this there's always wiggle room for someone to do exactly as you are doing, and merely flicking your wrist to wave off the unsavory character of the party as just a fringe minimal element.

Let's put it this way PanzerJaeger... when you have to routinely conduct damage control because people who support your cause are always showing up with signs alluding to wishing for Kennedy solutions or making racially charged denouncements of the President, that says something. Of course the Tea Party isn't going to put "we have a lot of people who hate blacks" in its official charter for me to pull out and show you. So what? All you are doing is spin doctoring something that is pretty obvious to anyone who's paid the least bit of attention to the movement (and isn't a staunch supporter of it.)

I also find it interesting that you harp on anecdotal evidence and your entire handwaving of signs you can see at Tea Party events involves pointing out ONE incident where a particularly offensive sign bearer was thrown out. Like that's not defending your position about the overall Tea Party based off one cherrypicked anecdote.

[a completely inoffensive name]

-sticks fingers in ears- lalalalalallalala

[PanzerJaeger]

I could just as easily turn around and say your defense of the Tea Party is based on circumstantial or anecdotal cases of where they're actually coherent or avoiding overtly radical or offensive rhetoric, because with a fragmented group like this there's always wiggle room for someone to do exactly as you are doing, and merely flicking your wrist to wave off the unsavory character of the party as just a fringe minimal element.

This feels quite a bit like an appeal to ignorance. You're making the claim, you need to prove it. So far, you've offered some very limited anecdotal evidence that is disputed by at least one statistical analysis. I can find limited anecdotal evidence that paints nearly any large group of people in all sorts of negative lights.

Is that it? Have you ever been to a political rally? Crazy people write crazy things on signs. You'll have to do considerably better if you want to portray the six signs you posted as representative of the feelings of the entire movement.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Let's put it this way PanzerJaeger... when you have to routinely conduct damage control because people who support your cause are always showing up with signs alluding to wishing for Kennedy solutions or making racially charged denouncements of the President, that says something. Of course the Tea Party isn't going to put "we have a lot of people who hate blacks" in its official charter for me to pull out and show you. So what? All you are doing is spin doctoring something that is pretty obvious to anyone who's paid the least bit of attention to the movement (and isn't a staunch supporter of it.)

And yet, you saying it is the case does not make it so.

I'm still waiting for evidence of 'large numbers' of Tea Partiers using racial epithets or any other widespread demonstration of Tea Party racism. It is somewhat difficult to refute evidence you haven't even provided.

I also find it interesting that you harp on anecdotal evidence and your entire handwaving of signs you can see at Tea Party events involves pointing out ONE incident where a particularly offensive sign bearer was thrown out. Like that's not defending your position about the overall Tea Party based off one cherrypicked anecdote.

Actually, I've gone considerably beyond that in offering a source that directly refutes your 'six signs = Tea Party sentiment' line of reasoning. But really, what else can I do? You've offered nothing but anecdote, and thus I must respond via anecdote. Double shrug for you.

[Koga No Goshi]

You believe as you like, Panzer. You're resorting to burden of proof arguments in the realm of political charcterizations which is a really bad application of logic and most likely just a means to 'win' an argument in the face of overwhelming common sense. After all, I could pull out a hard stat that 85% of Tea Party people dislike blacks and you could say "oh but that's not racism." It's fairly clear in the exchange here that this is your style given that you could not even concede that Obama being called out as a Kenyan or Muslim has anything to do with race at all and tried to make some ridiculous dismissal that the same would happen to anyone with an unusual family heritage... the fact that few Americans would even ask where a white candidate's grandparents came from is just beside the point, right?

[PanzerJaeger]

You believe as you like, Panzer. You're resorting to burden of proof arguments in the realm of political charcterizations which is a really bad application of logic and most likely just a means to 'win' an argument in the face of overwhelming common sense. After all, I could pull out a hard stat that 85% of Tea Party people dislike blacks and you could say "oh but that's not racism." It's fairly clear in the exchange here that this is your style given that you could not even concede that Obama being called out as a Kenyan or Muslim has anything to do with race at all and tried to make some ridiculous dismissal that the same would happen to anyone with an unusual family heritage... the fact that few Americans would even ask where a white candidate's grandparents came from is just beside the point, right?

Prove to me that the vast majority of left wingers are not communist, anti-american, anti-semetic lunatics. Here are a bunch of signs from an anti-war rally on March 20, 2010 that vaguely reinforce my assertion.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Surely you can see the weakness of your position?

Your demand for evidence is a clever way to support your denial...

Really?

Is it really that obtuse to ask for evidence of racism before applying the label to such a wide swath of people? When did supposition replace proof as the basic standard on which we base factual discussions?

There is a name for such unprovable known-knowns. Faith.

[Koga No Goshi]

We gave you proof, signs at almost any large gathering of note. It's not the bearded covered with pins Vietnam vet crazies who just go from one political event to another as lifers who have crazy signs. It's pretty normal everyday people attending Tea Party rallies. There is also any number of statements of vitriol and even exhortations to violence and a whole pool of rhetoric from Tea Party supporters about white slavery and anti-Obama statements that fuse into a miasma of anti-black, anti-african character attacks calling him a Kenyan Muslim and everything else.

And of COURSE the established leadership of the Tea Party as such is going to, at least when cornered on the issue in front of a camera or interview, denounce racism. Their ability to do that is really the only thing that keeps the keel of the Tea Party movement at all microscopically above the moral highground of such lovely groups as the Westboro Baptists.

And all you've got is a burden of scientific evidence excuse for how signs and such can't be taken as any indication of a group's sentiment or as an indication of a motivating factor for at least a good portion of that group-- even if those signs show up rather consistently, enough to create regular media controversy which has to be constantly damage controlled.

At this point it's like Gutmench said, you are plugging your ears and playing rhetoric games. That's all you are doing.

As for "America-hating" on the left and such, that is what the right ROUTINELY accuses the left of all the time, in EVERY political cycle anyway. Bush was 8 years of being called a terrorist-sympathizing America hater anytime you opposed ANYTHING Bush wanted, whether it was invading Iraq which had nothing to do with 9/11 or allowing him to wiretap phones and spy on e-mails with a blank check. So I have no idea what you think you are bluffing by saying "well what if we take signs from the left and draw conclusions from it." The political right in America doesn't need signs or care about signs, they say the left is a bunch of anti-American un-American pseudo Americans all the time as a constant, regular part of their rhetoric. Without proof and without substantiation of any kind, just because it's a useful divisive bit of rhetoric.

[PanzerJaeger]

So I have no idea what you think you are bluffing by saying "well what if we take signs from the left and draw conclusions from it." The political right in America doesn't need signs or care about signs, they say the left is a bunch of anti-American un-American pseudo Americans all the time as a constant, regular part of their rhetoric. Without proof and without substantiation of any kind, just because it's a useful divisive bit of rhetoric.

Seriously? That statement is literally dripping with hypocrisy.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Seriously? That statement is literally dripping with hypocrisy.

What is the Fox news equivalent for the left? If you say MSNBC, I would have to say try harder.

[Koga No Goshi]

Seriously? That statement is literally dripping with hypocrisy.

Obama bashing on a line that frequently wanders WELL into purely racially-based cuts on his character is a common trait of the Tea Party. It's what lands them in headlines constantly.

Play all the rhetoric games in your own head that you please, it doesn't change that fact.

If you dislike that portrayal of the Tea Party I propose you take it up with them, rather than spending your time futilely trying to convince people on internet forums with rhetoric circles that they didn't actually hear all that offensive racist rhetoric or see those signs, they were just imagining it.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Really?

Is it really that obtuse to ask for evidence of racism before applying the label to such a wide swath of people? When did supposition replace proof as the basic standard on which we base factual discussions?

There is a name for such unprovable known-knowns. Faith.

You just blatantly ignored my reason why it is a joke you are asking for evidence. The fact is the Tea Party is not a wide swath. They are WASPs. Mostly middle aged to elderly.

Like I said, the KKK is just a southern heritage group because of the same logic you are applying.

It's called calling a spade a spade. And it doesn't mean that the goals the tea party wants are "bad" but they are motivated by hateful and disgusting reasons.

[PanzerJaeger]

You just blatantly ignored my reason why it is a joke you are asking for evidence. The fact is the Tea Party is not a wide swath. They are WASPs. Mostly middle aged to elderly.

Like I said, the KKK is just a southern heritage group because of the same logic you are applying.

No, there is easily provable evidence that the KKK is a racist organization. Why can't you come up with similar evidence against the Tea Party? Show me a Tea Party platform that declares America a white nation.

It's called calling a spade a spade.

Yikes. That wouldn't be my choice of words.

What is the Fox news equivalent for the left? If you say MSNBC, I would have to say try harder.

I do not understand.

Koga just got done exhorting me for challenging his signage=sentiment argument, and immediately ranted about the Right using signs to mischaracterize the Left without proof! Funny stuff.

[a completely inoffensive name]

No, there is easily provable evidence that the KKK is a racist organization. Why can't you come up with similar evidence against the Tea Party? Show me a Tea Party platform that declares America a white nation.

That is just one website. I can find a bunch of other websites for liberals and tea partyers that say the same thing. Doesn't mean the group as a whole is all about that.

Yikes. That wouldn't be my choice of words.

Thank you for just proving my point.

[Koga No Goshi]

No, there is easily provable evidence that the KKK is a racist organization. Why can't you come up with similar evidence against the Tea Party? Show me a Tea Party platform that declares America a white nation.



Yikes. That wouldn't be my choice of words.



I do not understand.

Koga just got done exhorting me for challenging his signage=sentiment argument, and immediately ranted about the Right using signs to mischaracterize the Left without proof! Funny stuff.

You are trying to make us prove a claim that the Tea Party in its official public statements or in its express charter has said someting racist. We made no such claim. We said that there is most definitely racism in the ranks of the Tea Party movement. I believe that would be a straw man, but I'll be kind and say you were simply inventing or shifting goalposts.

I don't need to prove anything is in their charter nor do I even need to pull up hard stats to claim there is racism in the Tea Party movement. One sign at one rally is more than enough, but when it's a lot of signs at a lot of rallies, and a lot of rhetoric from a lot of members...

[a completely inoffensive name]

Your demand for evidence is a clever way to support your denial because everyone knows that polls never give the truth about the breakdown of groups. Especially when it comes to their thoughts.

Any sort of poll that would try to find out how much racism there is in the organization is going to be immediately worthless due to responder bias. No one comes out and tells Rasmussen that they don't want the black man in the white house because that sentiment is recognized by all as being on the losing side in history.

Oh yeah, no one is racist against the illegal hispanic immigrants were just don't like them taking our jobs even though all of our European ancestors did the same thing...

When it comes to how large groups in society operate and think, everyone that is not part of the group knows what it really is. Those within the group only know what they want it to be. Everyone knows that there are black haters in the tea party and it is what drove it to become big in 2008 despite Bush committing the same economic policies without any sort of peep besides the Ron Paul supporters.

[Koga No Goshi]

Exactly. If the Tea Party legitimately is about fiscal responsibility first and foremost, it should have been a reaction to the two Bush terms... not to Obama's presidency.

That simple fact alone invalidates any claim that their opposition is purely political or only in response to Obama's political stances and nothing else.