Who was innocent

[Fragony]

If you try to brainwash children into sympathising with child-killers, what does it make you.

What are these youth-camps exactly. Oh the irony. Heard that on the day prior to the attack a game was organised where the kids wearing paliflags had to break the blockade. Not all that weird because it's Norway but even our hardcore antisemit socialist party wouldn't brainwash young minds like that. If I hear things like that I find it kinda hard to get worked up about them dying by the hands of a terrorist. Labour shame on you, like crocodiles they cry when they bite. They are probably too leftist to understand that they aren't allowed to skullfrak kids this way, I'm not going to apologise on behalf of the right anymore, hate was planted there and hate is what they got. Poor kids, but labour-jugend ain't that far off

[Centurion1]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh this is going to end badly.

[InsaneApache]

In before teh lock.

[Adrian II]

Why lock it? It's tasteless and over the top as usual, but Frags touches on a topic that is relevant.

Norwegian intellectuals and politicians are generally pretty naive when it comes to the Middle East. Emulating the Gaza fleet on Utoya must have been a pretty stupid game, as well as childish. We know that said fleet is organised by shady characters and organisations, mostly islamists and their western admirers. In that sense Fragony is right. But the kids didn't deserve to die for it. That's just Fragony's way of coping with a horrible world.

But there is an issue here. For instance I have always wondered why a mouth-foaming islamomidget like mullah Krekar has been tolerated in Norway for so long, whereas an Israel-propagandist like Dershowitz is not allowed to speak at Norwegian universities.

AII

[Fragony]

Of course they didn't have to die, but that stepherd-wife smile Norway freaks me out. Creepy that they have these indoctrination-camps, nothing childish about it, it's malicious. Gutmensch never ceases to amaze me

[Adrian II]

Gutmensch never ceases to amaze me

Gutmensch has his accomplishments, even with regard to the Middle East he can bridge a gap that others can't.

There is an uncanny parallel here, too. Israelis killed 19 unarmed people on the previous Gaza fleet, Breivik killed dozens of unarmed youngsters shortly after they mimicked the present Gaza fleet.

No reason to be so starry-eyed about Israel, me boy.

AII

[Skullheadhq]

Of course they didn't have to die, but that stepherd-wife smile Norway freaks me out. Creepy that they have these indoctrination-camps, nothing childish about it, it's malicious. Gutmensch never ceases to amaze me

That's because political youth camps are by definition misguided. Why would kids have to organize politically and then go to an awkward, everyone-thinks-the-same camp? It just makes no sense.

[Viking]

If you try to brainwash children into sympathising with child-killers, what does it make you.

The sympathy does not lie with the killers of children, duh. What does such an overstatement make you.

But there is an issue here. For instance I have always wondered why a mouth-foaming islamomidget like mullah Krekar has been tolerated in Norway for so long, whereas an Israel-propagandist like Dershowitz is not allowed to speak at Norwegian universities.

Krekar is not at all being tolerated, but because chances are he will receive the death sentence if he returns to Iraq, he will not be returned at present.

That's because political youth camps are by definition misguided. Why would kids have to organize politically and then go to an awkward, everyone-thinks-the-same camp? It just makes no sense.

I don't know much about what was going on this annual AUF camp, but political youth camps do sound creepy to me as well. I think most parties here have similar gatherings, though precise details evade my memory.

[Adrian II]

Krekar is not at all being tolerated [...]

Oh, but he is. In 2007 the Norwegian Supreme Court ruled that Krekar was a 'threat to Norway's national security'. He has since uttered death threads against Norwegian politicians as well as loads of other 'enemies'. So why isn't he convicted? Why isn't he even incarcerated?

Do the Norwegian security services have a deal with him, that they will leave him alone if he won't order attacsk on Norwegian soil?

The Brits have tried for years to manage their islamist underworld in this manner: just leave them alone as long as they perpetrate their murders in France, Germany and elsewhere and we don't look bad. Well, they got their comeuppance in 2005. Norway will have to deal decisively with Krekar. That is in the interest of Norwegian muslims as well as Norway as a whole.

AII

[HoreTore]

Krekar is so far from a threath to our nation than you can get. He has stayed here for 20 years, no bombs so far. If he wished to blow up something here, I'm quite sure he would have done it already. Now, if they had charged him with war crimes in Iraq or something like that, they might be onto something. But a threath against national security? Laughable.

Onto the nature of Utøya.

It is NOT a kids summer camp. Not in any way. Its not a place where parents send their kids.

AUF has two national events. One is the national party meeting, usually in october, where the politics, leadership, etc is decided. The other is Utøya, where all that stuff is debated. Youth parties in Norway have an active role in politics, and Utøya is how AUF prepares itself on a national level for the upcoming election. The rest of the time is spent debating and socializing.

Most are in their late teens/early twenties. To call them kids is to flaunt your ignorance openly.

A game where people play with flags and such? I call BS.

[Skullheadhq]

Krekar is so far from a threath to our nation than you can get. He has stayed here for 20 years, no bombs so far. If he wished to blow up something here, I'm quite sure he would have done it already. Now, if they had charged him with war crimes in Iraq or something like that, they might be onto something. But a threath against national security? Laughable.

Onto the nature of Utøya.

It is NOT a kids summer camp. Not in any way. Its not a place where parents send their kids.

AUF has two national events. One is the national party meeting, usually in october, where the politics, leadership, etc is decided. The other is Utøya, where all that stuff is debated. Youth parties in Norway have an active role in politics, and Utøya is how AUF prepares itself on a national level for the upcoming election. The rest of the time is spent debating and socializing.

Most are in their late teens/early twenties. To call them kids is to flaunt your ignorance openly.

A game where people play with flags and such? I call BS.

LOL, Labour party policy is largely set out by kids, that explains a lot....

[Fragony]

Call it what you want. But it has indoctrination written all over it. Creepy

'LOL, Labour party policy is largely set out by kids, that explains a lot.... '

I lol'ed

[HoreTore]

LOL, Labour party policy is largely set out by kids, that explains a lot....

No.

Every party in Norway has a youth party like AUF, and they all fuction in the same way. All of them also have two main events, the national party meeting and a socializer. The communists meet on Tromøya in the south, AUF has Utøya, the progress party youth meets in vestfold, etc etc. This is how Norwegian politics works, if you believe it to be indoctrination, then I'm sorry, but you are then a trifle mistaken.

And for the last time, youth does NOT mean kids. Youth is defined as anyone up to the age of 33. Most youth party members are around 20, while most of the influential ones(eskil pedersen, røe isaksen, hovland, etc) are in their late twenties.

The primary role of youth parties is to campaign towards the 18-30 age group, host school debates and subsequent school elections.

[Adrian II]

Krekar is so far from a threath to our nation than you can get.

Your Supreme Court seems to disagree. And the UN too since they put him on their terrorist list.

He has stayed here for 20 years, no bombs so far.

Not in Norway. In Iraq, however: car bombs, suicide bombings, threats to kill all Christians. Hence my question: does Norway have a 'British' deal with this guy, turning a blind eye so long as he does his killing elsewhere?

AII

[HoreTore]

.....and that would kinda be my point, wouldn't it?

Krekar is a threat to Iraq. So charge him on being a threat to Iraq then!

Anyways, the reason he isn't sent out is because of that pesky little book called 'Norwegian Law', which says we can't send people to places where they risk execution. Iraq would be such a place. Hence, he stays.

[Fragony]

'if you believe it to be indoctrination, then I'm sorry, but you are then a trifle mistaken.'

That is of course perfectly possible. What would you call it, awareness probably. If it isn't indoctrination it's at least social control. And even if it isn't that it's still pushy. .

Why do they have paliflags anyway, what does it have to do with Norway

[Adrian II]

Krekar is a threat to Iraq. So charge him on being a threat to Iraq then!

No, he is a threat to Norway. The old imbecile even threated a Norwegian minister, a representative of the country that kept him safe for 14 years, with death.

Don't send him to Iraq or the US where they will torture him and use his 'confessions' to harm even more innocents. Send him to jail.

AII

[HoreTore]

No, he is a threat to Norway. The old imbecile even threated a Norwegian minister, a representative of the country that kept him safe for 14 years, with death.

Don't send him to Iraq or the US where they will torture him and use his 'confessions' to harm even more innocents. Send him to jail.

AII

That particular incident is recent and under investigation, Adrian.

[Skullheadhq]

or the US where they will torture him and use his 'confessions' to harm even more innocents.

Who could have said this 15 years ago?

[Fragony]

No, he is a threat to Norway. The old imbecile even threated a Norwegian minister, a representative of the country that kept him safe for 14 years, with death.

Don't send him to Iraq or the US where they will torture him and use his 'confessions' to harm even more innocents. Send him to jail.

AII

I don't understand it all that much either, Stocholm by proxy or something like that. A lot of western confusion in any case, glad you are immune for that, I'd almost vote on you.

I still thing he should just be dumped in Iraq, or with his butt painted red with Bakito

[Adrian II]

A lot of western confusion in any case, glad you are immune for that, I'd almost vote on you.

Mensch! Don't vote for a money-grubbing pinko centralist Francophile.

Seriously, I have always been critical of western capitals that gave islamists too much money, respectability and logistic leeway. 'Londonistan' for instance has become a festering sore. The US has discovered that financing and arming Quran-toting 'freedom fighters' wasn't such a good idea. The Dutch have found out that their policy of scientific openness helped Pakistan develop its nuclear bomb.

Such developments have harmed western interests as well as the standing of millions of hard-working, decent, law-abiding, hospitable and friendly muslims on western soil.

So maybe it's time for a rethink eh?

AII

[Fisherking]

As to the original topic of this discussion;

What is so amazing about all this?

People have indoctrinated youth since mankind began.

When we agree with it we call it in favorable terms and when we disagree we call it atrocious behavior.

Normally parents or society at large teach children how to view the world. If you pass them over to political organizations you should not be surprised that they may instill a narrower view based on their own beliefs to those in their charge.

[HoreTore]

Yes, Utøya is a place of indoctranation, because they hold debates there. Because, you know, in a debate you only ever get one argument.

No, wait?

A youth party is a political party. What happens at their events is political stuff. The ones attending are politicans, the only remarkable thing is that they are all in their late teens/twenties. A hefty percentage of them are already voted into office, most locally, but a few occupy some of the 169 seats of parliament.

They're not being indoctrinated, if anything they would be the ones who would indoctrinate others.

And for the record, I was there in 2008. As a communist spy, of course....

Edit: crank out google translate, and read about the evil indoctrination the conservative youth party is planning to do:

http://ungehoyre.no/organisasjonen/skolering.html

[Adrian II]

Indoctrination usually means that people are force-fed certain views or an entire lifestyle, to the exclusion of everything else. No other sources of information are allowed, and those protesting the indoctrination are isolated and punished. That's what happened in the Hitler Jugend. There is not even a semblance of a parallel to Utoya. Those who think otherwise are retards, hysterics or Glenn Beck.

AII

[Fragony]

'So maybe it's time for a rethink eh?'

That would be lovely

'Yes, Utøya is a place of indoctranation, because they hold debates there. Because, you know, in a debate you only ever get one argument.'

If the organization organises a break the blockade game I'd say the debate was already kinda settled.

[Cute Wolf]

That's because political youth camps are by definition retarded. Why would kids have to organize politically and then go to an awkward, everyone-thinks-the-same camp? It just makes no sense.

they imitate muslim madrasah system *cough* emulate the muslims *cough*

but even with that, killing unarmed defenseless childs are by definition utter coward

[Louis VI the Fat]

People join a political party to find like-minded people. They study, roleplay together, sing songs. Religious organisations are for people of like-minded religious persuasion. They pary together, sing. Civic organisations may go on camp together to preserve nature, or for cultural reasons, or for a fantasy new age mediaevil fair. It's what people do. These kids, this camp ground, is neither innocent nor guilty. It is just people gathering together. Democracy does not mean an absense of political and religious activism, or an absense of the recruitment of youth.

Democracy means the absense of a fight to the death with those of different persuasion. And fascism is the ideology that describes difference as enmity, as a struggle for supremacy, which seeks total eradication of those of different peruasion.




As a nudist, I disagree with wearing clothes. I shall now go to a children's 'dress like your favourite animal!' party to shoot them all, this Hitlerjugend who are indoctrinated into wearing clothes in public, these multiclothist shock troops.

[Fragony]

'These kids, this camp ground, is neither innocent nor guilty.'

Sure. But a little bit of reflection from the left isn't all that much to ask for imho

[ICantSpellDawg]

wrong post

[Tellos Athenaios]

@Fragony: in case you missed it, according to HoreTore they did not have a “break the blockade” game.

EDIT: Btw, if I understand this correctly, similar camps are held by pretty much any mainstream political party in the Neds as well once there is an active “youth” part anyway. 'Course PVV being what it is might prefer not to host such events.