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Thread: The Jewish Lobby
Originally Posted by :
Not as much as they despise the West, apparently.
I call Not as much as they despise the West, apparently.
. I don't believe it, there's no way that the Iranian government would deal with the same Taliban that murdered the Iranian diplomats at Mazar ê-Sharif less than a decade earlier. Perhaps that the Iranian government funded some Shi'ite splinter group, but it doesn't make any sense for them to fund the Taliban as a whole. There's one sentence I find troubling in particular:Originally Posted by :
Ideological differences between Iran, a Shia Muslim state, and the Taliban, a Sunni militia, are thought to have been settled in light of the shared aim in attacking coalition forces.
The Taliban aren't just "Sunni militias", they are hardcore Sunnite fundamentalists to the extreme. It would not make any sense for them to forge even a temporary alliance with the Iranians, as the Shi'ites are worse than non-believers, they are apostates. Or something. I find it hard to believe. Ideological differences between Iran, a Shia Muslim state, and the Taliban, a Sunni militia, are thought to have been settled in light of the shared aim in attacking coalition forces.
A different explanation might be that there is a lot of corruption within Iran itself. It might be that the government either didn't know or didn't care about weapons smuggle to Afghanistan.
Israel is terrible. I hate them more and more every day. I'm gaining greater respect for Jews in an inverse relationship to my engorging hatred of Israel.
When did Eric Cartman join the org?
Originally Posted by Hax:
I call. I don't believe it, there's no way that the Iranian government would deal with the same Taliban that murdered the Iranian diplomats at Mazar ê-Sharif less than a decade earlier. Perhaps that the Iranian government funded some Shi'ite splinter group, but it doesn't make any sense for them to fund the Taliban as a whole. There's one sentence I find troubling in particular:
The Taliban aren't just "Sunni militias", they are hardcore Sunnite fundamentalists to the extreme. It would not make any sense for them to forge even a temporary alliance with the Iranians, as the Shi'ites are worse than non-believers, they are apostates. Or something. I find it hard to believe.
A different explanation might be that there is a lot of corruption within Iran itself. It might be that the government either didn't know or didn't care about weapons smuggle to Afghanistan.
No offense dude, but your linear view of alliances, associations and state sponsored hate is kind of comical.I call
. I don't believe it, there's no way that the Iranian government would deal with the same Taliban that murdered the Iranian diplomats at Mazar ê-Sharif less than a decade earlier. Perhaps that the Iranian government funded some Shi'ite splinter group, but it doesn't make any sense for them to fund the Taliban as a whole. There's one sentence I find troubling in particular:The Taliban aren't just "Sunni militias", they are hardcore Sunnite fundamentalists to the extreme. It would not make any sense for them to forge even a temporary alliance with the Iranians, as the Shi'ites are worse than non-believers, they are apostates. Or something. I find it hard to believe.
A different explanation might be that there is a lot of corruption within Iran itself. It might be that the government either didn't know or didn't care about weapons smuggle to Afghanistan.
So let me break it down for you:
Iran is no fan of the Taliban.
Iran is no fan of the US.
Iran can fuel a proxy war between two of its enemies by providing weapons.
It's not a question of "are they?" its a question of "why wouldn't they?" You do know that Iran shares a border with Afghanistan, I am sure, and that Iran has a huge stake in the future of the country. This is evident enough in the violence levels between the east and west. Iran is in a tug of war with Pakistan.
I should also point out that the Taliban is not the only hostile force in the region, as there are a dozen anti-government splinter groups operating in Afghanistan, both Sunni and Shia. They do, however, tend to get overshadowed by the Taliban and people talking geopolitics tend to refer to all insurgents in Afghanistan as the Taliban, either for simplicity or due to ignorance.
Well, you've served on the ground there, so I'll go with your personal experience. Maybe my point wasn't coming across clear enough (writing posts at 3 AM), but I completely agree with your final assessment:
Originally Posted by :
I should also point out that the Taliban is not the only hostile force in the region, as there are a dozen anti-government splinter groups operating in Afghanistan, both Sunni and Shia. They do, however, tend to get overshadowed by the Taliban and people talking geopolitics tend to refer to all insurgents in Afghanistan as the Taliban, either for simplicity or due to ignorance.
I should also point out that the Taliban is not the only hostile force in the region, as there are a dozen anti-government splinter groups operating in Afghanistan, both Sunni and Shia. They do, however, tend to get overshadowed by the Taliban and people talking geopolitics tend to refer to all insurgents in Afghanistan as the Taliban, either for simplicity or due to ignorance.
Originally Posted by Hax:
Well, you've served on the ground there, so I'll go with your personal experience. Maybe my point wasn't coming across clear enough (writing posts at 3 AM), but I completely agree with your final assessment:
I re-read what you posted and what I posted, and I came off as a condascending ****, I am sorry for that.Well, you've served on the ground there, so I'll go with your personal experience. Maybe my point wasn't coming across clear enough (writing posts at 3 AM), but I completely agree with your final assessment:
Re-posted as per Hooahguy's request.
I discussed this with him over Steam, but just to be explicitly clear, I am refering to Zionist Jews in this thread. As discussed in my original link (that I guess no one actually read; that's ok) Zionist Jews =/= Jews. They are a powerful minority within the greater, mainstream Jewish population in America. Their loyalty lies with Israel, despite their American citizenship, and they have no qualms about using American power to further Israel's interests.
Originally Posted by :
Dear PJ:
I have been recently made aware of your post in the backroom about the Jewish lobby.
I have also noticed that you are grouping AIPAC and Jews in one group.
I want to tell you something. I love this country. It has given me everything I could ever want. Except a girlfriend who sticks with me longer than a year, but I guess thats my problem.
Anyhow, I love this country, and thats why I plan to fight for it. I plan to enlist in the US Army after I return from my year abroad. I plan to take an oath to defend this country, this country, not Israel, from all threats, foreign and internal.
That being said, I vehemently protest your grouping of Jews and the Jewish Lobby. Yes, the vast majority of Jews are pro-Israel, but thats to be expected. But to say that Jews are out to destroy America is just flat-out wrong.
Most love America, and while you have every now and then the nutjob who does want to put Israel before the US, most are apathetic about it all.
Dont get me wrong. I truly believe that the Israel lobby is way too strong. It needs to be curtailed.
But do not group AIPAC with Jews. Jews are not trying to take down this country. This is not the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
Best regards,
Hooahguy
PS: PJ, if you would be so kind as to post this in the Backroom as to make my position clear, that would be appreciated.
Dear PJ:
I have been recently made aware of your post in the backroom about the Jewish lobby.
I have also noticed that you are grouping AIPAC and Jews in one group.
I want to tell you something. I love this country. It has given me everything I could ever want. Except a girlfriend who sticks with me longer than a year, but I guess thats my problem.
Anyhow, I love this country, and thats why I plan to fight for it. I plan to enlist in the US Army after I return from my year abroad. I plan to take an oath to defend this country, this country, not Israel, from all threats, foreign and internal.
That being said, I vehemently protest your grouping of Jews and the Jewish Lobby. Yes, the vast majority of Jews are pro-Israel, but thats to be expected. But to say that Jews are out to destroy America is just flat-out wrong.
Most love America, and while you have every now and then the nutjob who does want to put Israel before the US, most are apathetic about it all.
Dont get me wrong. I truly believe that the Israel lobby is way too strong. It needs to be curtailed.
But do not group AIPAC with Jews. Jews are not trying to take down this country. This is not the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
Best regards,
Hooahguy
PS: PJ, if you would be so kind as to post this in the Backroom as to make my position clear, that would be appreciated.
I discussed this with him over Steam, but just to be explicitly clear, I am refering to Zionist Jews in this thread. As discussed in my original link (that I guess no one actually read; that's ok) Zionist Jews =/= Jews. They are a powerful minority within the greater, mainstream Jewish population in America. Their loyalty lies with Israel, despite their American citizenship, and they have no qualms about using American power to further Israel's interests.
Originally Posted by :
The core of the Lobby is comprised of American Jews who make a significant effort in their daily lives to bend U.S. foreign policy so that it advances Israel’s interests. Their activities go beyond merely voting for candidates who are pro‐Israel to include letter‐writing, financial contributions, and supporting pro‐Israel organizations. But not all Jewish‐Americans are part of the Lobby, because Israel is not a salient issue for many of them. In a 2004 survey, for example, roughly 36 percent of Jewish‐Americans said they were either “not very” or “not at all” emotionally attached to Israel.60
Jewish‐Americans also differ on specific Israeli policies. Many of the key organizations in the Lobby, like AIPAC and the Conference of Presidents of Major Jewish Organizations (CPMJO), are run by hardliners who generally supported the expansionist policies of Israel’s Likud Party, including its hostility to the Oslo Peace Process. The bulk of U.S. Jewry, on the other hand, is more favorably disposed to making concessions to the Palestinians, and a few groups—such as Jewish Voice for Peace—strongly advocate such steps.61 Despite these differences, moderates and hardliners both support steadfast U.S. support for Israel.
Not surprisingly, American Jewish leaders often consult with Israeli officials, so that the former can maximize their influence in the United States. As one activist with a major Jewish organization wrote, “it is routine for us to say: ‘This is our 14 policy on a certain issue, but we must check what the Israelis think.’ We as a community do it all the time.”62 There is also a strong norm against criticizing Israeli policy, and Jewish‐American leaders rarely support putting pressure on Israel. Thus, Edgar Bronfman Sr., the president of the World Jewish Congress, was accused of “perfidy” when he wrote a letter to President Bush in mid‐2003 urging Bush to pressure Israel to curb construction of its controversial “security fence.”63 Critics declared that, “It would be obscene at any time for the president of the World Jewish Congress to lobby the president of the United States to resist policies being promoted by the government of Israel.”
Similarly, when Israel Policy Forum president Seymour Reich advised Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to pressure Israel to reopen a critical border crossing in the Gaza Strip in November 2005, critics denounced his action as “irresponsible behavior,” and declared that, “There is absolutely no room in the Jewish mainstream for actively canvassing against the security‐related policies . . . of Israel.”64 Recoiling from these attacks, Reich proclaimed that “the word pressure is not in my vocabulary when it comes to Israel.”
Jewish‐Americans have formed an impressive array of organizations to influence American foreign policy, of which AIPAC is the most powerful and well‐known. In 1997, Fortune magazine asked members of Congress and their staffs to list the most powerful lobbies in Washington.65 AIPAC was ranked second behind the American Association of Retired People (AARP), but ahead of heavyweight lobbies like the AFL‐CIO and the National Rifle Association. A National Journal study in March 2005 reached a similar conclusion, placing AIPAC in second place (tied with AARP) in the Washington’s “muscle rankings.”66
The core of the Lobby is comprised of American Jews who make a significant effort in their daily lives to bend U.S. foreign policy so that it advances Israel’s interests. Their activities go beyond merely voting for candidates who are pro‐Israel to include letter‐writing, financial contributions, and supporting pro‐Israel organizations. But not all Jewish‐Americans are part of the Lobby, because Israel is not a salient issue for many of them. In a 2004 survey, for example, roughly 36 percent of Jewish‐Americans said they were either “not very” or “not at all” emotionally attached to Israel.60
Jewish‐Americans also differ on specific Israeli policies. Many of the key organizations in the Lobby, like AIPAC and the Conference of Presidents of Major Jewish Organizations (CPMJO), are run by hardliners who generally supported the expansionist policies of Israel’s Likud Party, including its hostility to the Oslo Peace Process. The bulk of U.S. Jewry, on the other hand, is more favorably disposed to making concessions to the Palestinians, and a few groups—such as Jewish Voice for Peace—strongly advocate such steps.61 Despite these differences, moderates and hardliners both support steadfast U.S. support for Israel.
Not surprisingly, American Jewish leaders often consult with Israeli officials, so that the former can maximize their influence in the United States. As one activist with a major Jewish organization wrote, “it is routine for us to say: ‘This is our 14 policy on a certain issue, but we must check what the Israelis think.’ We as a community do it all the time.”62 There is also a strong norm against criticizing Israeli policy, and Jewish‐American leaders rarely support putting pressure on Israel. Thus, Edgar Bronfman Sr., the president of the World Jewish Congress, was accused of “perfidy” when he wrote a letter to President Bush in mid‐2003 urging Bush to pressure Israel to curb construction of its controversial “security fence.”63 Critics declared that, “It would be obscene at any time for the president of the World Jewish Congress to lobby the president of the United States to resist policies being promoted by the government of Israel.”
Similarly, when Israel Policy Forum president Seymour Reich advised Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to pressure Israel to reopen a critical border crossing in the Gaza Strip in November 2005, critics denounced his action as “irresponsible behavior,” and declared that, “There is absolutely no room in the Jewish mainstream for actively canvassing against the security‐related policies . . . of Israel.”64 Recoiling from these attacks, Reich proclaimed that “the word pressure is not in my vocabulary when it comes to Israel.”
Jewish‐Americans have formed an impressive array of organizations to influence American foreign policy, of which AIPAC is the most powerful and well‐known. In 1997, Fortune magazine asked members of Congress and their staffs to list the most powerful lobbies in Washington.65 AIPAC was ranked second behind the American Association of Retired People (AARP), but ahead of heavyweight lobbies like the AFL‐CIO and the National Rifle Association. A National Journal study in March 2005 reached a similar conclusion, placing AIPAC in second place (tied with AARP) in the Washington’s “muscle rankings.”66
You know normally it is the smaller country that has to pretend that it's larger allies interests are its interests.
Political judo or just a fact of who needs who more?
Political judo or just a fact of who needs who more?
While I haven't had time to formulate an articulate a response worty of my reputation I would just like to say I do not support Israel on any grounds other the geo political and I read your link
Love me?
Love me?
Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger:
Re-posted as per Hooahguy's request.
Their loyalty lies with Israel, despite their American citizenship, and they have no qualms about using American power to further Israel's interests.
Says someone with a Panzer as a sig, german origin, and well documented Right Wing views...Re-posted as per Hooahguy's request.
Their loyalty lies with Israel, despite their American citizenship, and they have no qualms about using American power to further Israel's interests.
Why does the US support Israel? Its Realpolitik! Simple as that. For the same reason it was no problem selling F-15 planes to Saudi at the same time. For the same reason Osama bin Laden was made into a freedom fighter and then into a terrorist. Its what made the U.S a superpower in the first place. The ability to promote the country's interests without moral or cultural burdens. From my point of view there is absolutely no need for endless posts on a matter where things are simple.
The argument being made is that the support of Israel is not in the best interests of the US. Or that, at least, the level of support is disproportionate to the benefit received. If this is the case then such support ceases to be Realpolitik.
Originally Posted by rasoforos:
Says someone with a Panzer as a sig, german origin, and well documented Fascist views...
Why does the US support Israel? Its Realpolitik! Simple as that. For the same reason it was no problem selling F-15 planes to Saudi at the same time. For the same reason Osama bin Laden was made into a freedom fighter and then into a terrorist. Its what made the U.S a superpower in the first place. The ability to promote the country's interests without moral or cultural burdens. From my point of view there is absolutely no need for endless posts on a matter where things are simple.
Godwin?Says someone with a Panzer as a sig, german origin, and well documented Fascist views...
Why does the US support Israel? Its Realpolitik! Simple as that. For the same reason it was no problem selling F-15 planes to Saudi at the same time. For the same reason Osama bin Laden was made into a freedom fighter and then into a terrorist. Its what made the U.S a superpower in the first place. The ability to promote the country's interests without moral or cultural burdens. From my point of view there is absolutely no need for endless posts on a matter where things are simple.
gah
Originally Posted by rasoforos:
Says someone with a Panzer as a sig, german origin, and well documented Right Wing views...
rasoforos. I haven't seen that name around the forum in many years. It's good to see you posting again. Says someone with a Panzer as a sig, german origin, and well documented Right Wing views...
Originally Posted by :
Why does the US support Israel? Its Realpolitik! Simple as that. For the same reason it was no problem selling F-15 planes to Saudi at the same time. For the same reason Osama bin Laden was made into a freedom fighter and then into a terrorist. Its what made the U.S a superpower in the first place. The ability to promote the country's interests without moral or cultural burdens. From my point of view there is absolutely no need for endless posts on a matter where things are simple.
If only it were that simple... Unfortunately, the situation is very much the opposite of that which would be expected under realpolitik - one that can only be described as the subservience of a global superpower to a tiny, geopolitically meaningless country. Israel is completely reliant on America, not the other way around. And yet, Israel's will is sacrosanct and her national security objectives, economic priorities, and even the fleeting whims of her political class become America's. Why is that? The powerful Jewish lobby has a stranglehold on America's political structure.Why does the US support Israel? Its Realpolitik! Simple as that. For the same reason it was no problem selling F-15 planes to Saudi at the same time. For the same reason Osama bin Laden was made into a freedom fighter and then into a terrorist. Its what made the U.S a superpower in the first place. The ability to promote the country's interests without moral or cultural burdens. From my point of view there is absolutely no need for endless posts on a matter where things are simple.
Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger:
Re-posted as per Hooahguy's request.
I discussed this with him over Steam, but just to be explicitly clear, I am refering to Zionist Jews in this thread. As discussed in my original link (that I guess no one actually read; that's ok) Zionist Jews =/= Jews. They are a powerful minority within the greater, mainstream Jewish population in America. Their loyalty lies with Israel, despite their American citizenship, and they have no qualms about using American power to further Israel's interests.
When you speak of Zionism, you are speaking of the Jews. http://www.jewish-history.com/mlk_zionism.htmlRe-posted as per Hooahguy's request.
I discussed this with him over Steam, but just to be explicitly clear, I am refering to Zionist Jews in this thread. As discussed in my original link (that I guess no one actually read; that's ok) Zionist Jews =/= Jews. They are a powerful minority within the greater, mainstream Jewish population in America. Their loyalty lies with Israel, despite their American citizenship, and they have no qualms about using American power to further Israel's interests.
Originally Posted by :
During an appearance at Harvard University shortly before his death, a student stood up and asked King to address himself to the issue of Zionism. The question was clearly hostile. King responded, “When people criticize Zionists they mean Jews, you are talking anti-Semitism.”
During an appearance at Harvard University shortly before his death, a student stood up and asked King to address himself to the issue of Zionism. The question was clearly hostile. King responded, “When people criticize Zionists they mean Jews, you are talking anti-Semitism.”
My irony detector just went off. You didn't link to that source to support that claim (anti-Zionism == anti-semitism), did you?
Originally Posted by Hax:
I call. I don't believe it, there's no way that the Iranian government would deal with the same Taliban that murdered the Iranian diplomats at Mazar ê-Sharif less than a decade earlier. Perhaps that the Iranian government funded some Shi'ite splinter group, but it doesn't make any sense for them to fund the Taliban as a whole. There's one sentence I find troubling in particular:
The Taliban aren't just "Sunni militias", they are hardcore Sunnite fundamentalists to the extreme. It would not make any sense for them to forge even a temporary alliance with the Iranians, as the Shi'ites are worse than non-believers, they are apostates. Or something. I find it hard to believe.
A different explanation might be that there is a lot of corruption within Iran itself. It might be that the government either didn't know or didn't care about weapons smuggle to Afghanistan.
Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union were mortal enemies according to their respective ideologies, but they cooperated for several years on a variety of issues - culminating in the partition of eastern Europe per the Molotov-Ribbentrop treaty, and ending only when Germany invaded the USSR by surprise.I call
. I don't believe it, there's no way that the Iranian government would deal with the same Taliban that murdered the Iranian diplomats at Mazar ê-Sharif less than a decade earlier. Perhaps that the Iranian government funded some Shi'ite splinter group, but it doesn't make any sense for them to fund the Taliban as a whole. There's one sentence I find troubling in particular:The Taliban aren't just "Sunni militias", they are hardcore Sunnite fundamentalists to the extreme. It would not make any sense for them to forge even a temporary alliance with the Iranians, as the Shi'ites are worse than non-believers, they are apostates. Or something. I find it hard to believe.
A different explanation might be that there is a lot of corruption within Iran itself. It might be that the government either didn't know or didn't care about weapons smuggle to Afghanistan.
On several ocassions you yourself have pointed out that the Iranian government isn't entirely composed out of near-suicidal, foaming-at-the-moath lunatics. Iran may have had pragmatic reasons to support Afghan insurgents, such as undermining an ally of the USA (the current Afghan republic)
I'd also question the ideological purity of the average "Taliban" bloke, or members of other splinter groups. I recall reading somewhere that during the Afghan-Soviet war the Arab volunteers (OBL's ilk) weren't always popular with the local Afghan insurgents because the former had a "holier than thou" attitude. They probably would have no qualms with using weapons from one "enemy" (Iran) in combat against another, more relevant enemy (NATO).
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