This is why we separate church and state

[Lemur]

Actually it also happens in countries where the church isn't that close to government anymore, i.e. here in Austria...

I get the impression, rightly or wrongly, that Ireland is a special case in terms of scale and awfulness.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I get the impression, rightly or wrongly, that Ireland is a special case in terms of scale and awfulness.

And special considering the central role of the Church in Irish history and society. Not all of which negative, even I will admit. The church has both preserved Ireland and stifled it, the final verdict open to personal preference.

The Irish republic has been a virtual theocracy for most of its existence. The tremendous changes in Ireland in the past two decades coming to the fore, being played out, in the abuse case. Who'd have thought, twenty-five years ago, that Irish TD's would openly call for a severence of diplomatic ties with the Vatican? The Pope, John F. Kennedy, and Jackie Charlton, these were once the Holy Trinity of Irish aspiration, the national identity of a country. Apart from the sickening abuse, this is also about the momentuous change that has taken place in a mere two decades, a country emancipating itself from destitution and civil war and theocracy all at once. Not a thousand bailouts detract anything from that.

[Adrian II]

I get the impression, rightly or wrongly, that Ireland is a special case in terms of scale and awfulness.

I'm afraid Romania is a better candidate. Both communist and post-communist Romania have been hell for many children. I'm not going to go all Google on your ass, there is an abundance of material about child abuse in Romania. The point is that all those years there has been no church around to put the blame on. The hierarchical, secretive nature of Romanian society under communism and its successors is to be blamed.

AII

[Lemur]

Romania

I am too afraid to Google. Cruelty to children — even just reading about it — puts me off for the whole day. I'll take your word for it, though, as well as your diagnosis. Secrecy and concentrated power make for evil, evil things.

[HoreTore]

Seperate state and church?

Shouldn't we start seperating priestly penises from choir boy bums instead?

[TheLastDays]

Shouldn't we start seperating priestly penises from choir boy bums instead?

We definitely should. Priests doing things like this are among the people who make it the hardest for me to keep to my non violent way of life.

I really don't know much about child abuse in other countries, or rather the extent of it, because, just as Lemur, I am not keen on reading reports about it but I do know it's pretty bad here in Austria as well...

[gaelic cowboy]

The big laugh is that in law and whatnot church and state were separate, but when everyone decides it is fine to ignore such a thing then bad things happen.

Kenny accuses Pope of playing down rape, torture of children

TAOISEACH Enda Kenny yesterday delivered a historic condemnation of the Vatican for attempting to cover up the sexual abuse of children.

In an unprecedented departure from previously diplomatic church-State relations, Mr Kenny directly accused the Catholic hierarchy of down-playing the rape of children to protect its own power and reputation.

Mr Kenny delivered a hallmark Dail address on behalf of the Government. He highlighted how the recent report into abuse in the Cloyne diocese highlighted the "dysfunction, disconnection, elitism . . . the narcissism . . . that dominate the culture of the Vatican to this day".

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

He said: "The rape and torture of children were downplayed or 'managed' to uphold instead, the primacy of the institution, its power, standing and 'reputation'."

Responding to Mr Kenny's speech, an emotional Archbishop of Dublin, Dr Diarmuid Martin, later described some of his fellow bishops as being part of a "cabal" who refuse to recognise the rules of the church.

And he called for the Catholic Church's child abuse watchdog to be given powers to compel bishops to co-operate with audits into dioceses.

Uncompromising

The uncompromising tone of Mr Kenny's speech is certain to send shockwaves through the Catholic hierarchy and the Vatican. Ireland has traditionally had a subservient relationship with the Holy See.

It will also be widely welcomed by victims of clerical abuse, who have reacted with dismay to Rome's muted denials that clergy were told not to report abuse claims.

After delivering the strongest speech in his tenure as Taoiseach -- and possibly his career -- Mr Kenny spoke passionately about how "the revelations of the Cloyne Report have brought the Government, Irish Catholics and the Vatican to an unprecedented juncture".

"Clericalism has rendered some of Ireland's brightest, most privileged and powerful men, either unwilling or unable to address the horrors cited in the Ryan and Murphy reports," he added.

Mr Kenny hit out at the Vatican's reaction to the harrowing evidence given by victims of clerical abuse, which he said was "parsed and analysed by a canon lawyer".

The Taoiseach said he agreed with Dr Martin that the church needed to publish all similar reports as soon as possible.

Speaking afterwards, Dr Martin appeared to fight back tears as he spoke of how he was angry, ashamed and appalled by the behaviour of bishops who shielded abusers from gardai.

"I find myself today asking ... can I be proud of the church, what I am seeing, I have to be ashamed of these things and I have to be ashamed because of what is being done to victims and what has been done to people in the church," he said.

"Those who felt they were able to play tricks with norms, they have betrayed those good men and so many others in the church who are working today and I am angry, ashamed and appalled by that," he added.

Referring to the country's bishops, Dr Martin said he hoped they could be trusted to be honest in their dealings with Ian Elliott, the chief executive of the National Board for Safeguarding Children in the Catholic Church.

But he said if this was not the case, the State should step in.

"If there is somebody there that is not prepared to be honest, then they will only be discovered if there is an audit that has the powers to be invasive.

"Ian Elliot has moral power but if there are people who are not acting morally, then moral power will not be enough," Dr Martin said.

- Fionnan Sheahan and Kevin Keane

Irish Independent

When you contrast Kenny and Bertie in there reaction to clerical abuse there is no comparison, De Bert actually used taxpayer money to bail the church from previous abuse cases.

[Vladimir]

Anyone need an antipope?