[EB] EDU Balance Proposals

[Lazy O]

Correction. If they are not fixed, you people will curse the day Persians were made into 100 men because of what ive planned for august.

And all skirmishers and archers should have 6 morale. I dont care, a simple village dud with a spear and small shield cannot stop a cavalry man. Elite Archers like Bosporan I suppose are fine as is, but beside them, even cretans and Imperials, every armoured archer should be 6 morale.

The biggest thing that would do is to stop people sitting around with 5 archers infront of 15 infantry with no cavalry and think they can win.

[Vega]

Lazy you are rightbut i think that rome is exeption about this they had won battles with infratry no with cavarly :D

[Kival]

Correction. If they are not fixed, you people will curse the day Persians were made into 100 men because of what ive planned for august.

Persians are a problem but that is no reason to lower the morale of every skirmisher and archer unit.

I dont care, a simple village dud with a spear and small shield cannot stop a cavalry man.

What are you speaking about? Luso skirms are described as part of the warror class, thrakian peltasts and dacian elite skirmishers are not just village duds...

And I still do not see a problem people using armies without cavalry.

[Lazy O]

Thracian Skirmishers... Yeah, It does not go down with me that Archers and Slingers stand up to cavalry charges. This is why your Overhand cavalry are so crap.

And so what if they are a warrior class? Cavalry would still mow them down.

[-Stormrage-]

we can make exceptions about ELITE skirmishers becuase they are expected to stand and fight in melee thats why they have .26 secondaries and high armour. but archers and lighter skirmishers cannot be expected to stand in the face of a cav charge.


here's the deal:
- 6 morale for light skirmishers and light archers, 7 morale for the heavier trained archers such as bosphorans, imperials, cretans, and syrians.

- +1 attack for all archers (since most EB units got lots of armour and to make up for the lower morale)

- jav damage raised to 16,17,18 ( due to the incredibly high armour of most eb units, even naked units have 4 armour)

P.S another thing i find very weird is that maces and axes have the same lethality as those knives(short swords) skirmishers use as secondary. come on even I know an axe is more lethal then a butter knife.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

How did we get to lowering skirmisher morale? They are bad enough already without routing from behind your lines because there are some nakeds in front of them. The only units that may need morale to be lowered would be archer units but I think the solution lies in making heavy archers more expensive rather than lowering morale. Light archers already pretty much insta rout from cavalry charges when properly executed, especially if they have lost 20% or more of their men.

The problem is thus for example. Player 1 is playing as Pontus, Player 2 as Getai. Player 1 takes 5 bosphoran archers and handily wins the missile duel over player 2's 5 dacian archers with about 2/3 of his archers left. Now, the difference in price between a dacian archer unit and a bosphoran unit is about 500 mnai. That means that player 2 has about 2500 extra mnai for other things. We will say that he uses that for an extra unit of cav. What can 2500 mnai get you (for any faction's cavalry)? Light charge cav which dies in droves to missiles or skirmish cav which does the same and won't have any effect charging heavy archers. Meanwhile, 2/3 of those bosphorans are around to finish off their arrows and then act as worthwhile medium infantry. There is no way you can tell me that having an extra about 250 medium infantry is not worth 2500 mnai. Yes you have paid a little extra to kill off his missile units but you have also scored extra infantry in the process. Now you tell me which player you would rather be?

As this is a historically based game, cost is really the one factor we can play with which does not affect that aspect. Playing with armor or morale does, but cost does not.

[-Stormrage-]

I did not understand a word of that, but i understand your concept.

Basically your saying increase heavy archer's price to match heavy infantry. I think that wont solve our problem of people using 2 heavy archers in loose formation to ruin cav charges .

I move :

-lower archer morale to prevent use as medium-heavy infantry and charge disrupters.

-to increase all archer damage by 1.

-to increase jav damage by 10.

(again the reasoning behind this is the amount of armour most eb units have , even nakeds have 4 armour because of a helmet.)

-increase Axe and Mace lethality

[antisocialmunky]

How did we get to lowering skirmisher morale? They are bad enough already without routing from behind your lines because there are some nakeds in front of them. The only units that may need morale to be lowered would be archer units but I think the solution lies in making heavy archers more expensive rather than lowering morale. Light archers already pretty much insta rout from cavalry charges when properly executed, especially if they have lost 20% or more of their men.

The problem is thus for example. Player 1 is playing as Pontus, Player 2 as Getai. Player 1 takes 5 bosphoran archers and handily wins the missile duel over player 2's 5 dacian archers with about 2/3 of his archers left. Now, the difference in price between a dacian archer unit and a bosphoran unit is about 500 mnai. That means that player 2 has about 2500 extra mnai for other things. We will say that he uses that for an extra unit of cav. What can 2500 mnai get you (for any faction's cavalry)? Light charge cav which dies in droves to missiles or skirmish cav which does the same and won't have any effect charging heavy archers. Meanwhile, 2/3 of those bosphorans are around to finish off their arrows and then act as worthwhile medium infantry. There is no way you can tell me that having an extra about 250 medium infantry is not worth 2500 mnai. Yes you have paid a little extra to kill off his missile units but you have also scored extra infantry in the process. Now you tell me which player you would rather be?

As this is a historically based game, cost is really the one factor we can play with which does not affect that aspect. Playing with armor or morale does, but cost does not.

StormRage storms and rages against everything. Under that system, Bosphorans/Imperials should be ~1600 mnai because they melee fairly well. That brings them in line with the high-end line infantry cost (1600).
Syrians/Cretans are alright for their current ~1400 mnai.

Of course, in response, you'll probably need to adjust the cost of the persian archers because those were balanced for the current pricing.

I also like my idea of increasing cavalry sizes for things like cheap javelin cav as well as non-elite cav. I think that'll solve some problems with under powered non-lancers and non-routing archers since outnumbering is a big deal. You may also feel it useful to take the 'disciplined' and other tags off the ones that do to increase morale decay.

[-Stormrage-]

Cav is not cheap, worthless javelin cav costs atleast 2300. increasng jav cav is an interesting suggestion.

[Kival]

I also like my idea of increasing cavalry sizes for things like cheap javelin cav as well as non-elite cav. I think that'll solve some problems with under powered non-lancers and non-routing archers since outnumbering is a big deal. You may also feel it useful to take the 'disciplined' and other tags off the ones that do to increase morale decay.

That sounds like a really interesting idea. It would not overpower the (higher tier) lancer-cavalry but give more value to the other cav units... this could also increase the use of elite non-lancer cav which lack any use for their costs at the moment.

Cav is not cheap, worthless javelin cav costs atleast 2300. increasng jav cav is an interesting suggestion.

What are you speaking about? 2,3k is the cost for the heavier javelin cav but not for the usual light cav.

[-Stormrage-]

usual light cav costs 1.9k while the light cav with javs cost 2.3k and javs are worthless.

[antisocialmunky]

I think the Akonistai on horses is like 1.4k. That unit is actually fairly decent as harass cav.

@Stormrage - are you sure some of the problems you are running into aren't due to your internet connection? Its hard to micro units when its lagging so bad.

[The Celtic Viking]

I think the skirm cav idea is one definitely worth trying out.

What are you speaking about? 2,3k is the cost for the heavier javelin cav but not for the usual light cav.

IIRC Thraikian Hippeis cost 2.3k, and they're not especially heavy.

[Kival]

IIIRC Thraikian Hippeis cost 2.3k, and they're not especially heavy.

Yeah, I was not precise: Medium armored javelin cav was meant by "heavier" like "heavier than light". Light skirmisher cav cost (mostly?) less than 2k: Leuce Epos, hippakontistai, arabian light cavalry, iberian and cantabrian light cav, etc.