Phalanxes seem kind of... pointless

[I_damian]

I've been playing a lot with the Seleukids/Makedonians/Ptolemaioi lately and so obviously using a lot of phalanxes, but it seems kind of pointless. I know how they're supposed to be used, 16 ranks deep with plenty of non-phalanx support on their flanks (although I never use them 16 ranks deep, makes the frontline too short), and that is how I use them. They look good and everything and are beautifully implemented by the EB team, but they're so pointless. The AI never attacks them. I know the AI is dumb as a bag of hammers, but when faced with phalanxes they seem to be able to do what many nations in history couldn't. Not attack them.

Lets say I have the "Core" of my army. Usually 3 units of levy phalanx, 2 kleruchoi(sp?) and 1 Pezhetairoi (I try to be realistic/histaccurate), and then I have the support for the phalanxes, lets say 3 units of Thureophoroi on the left flank and a couple of units of mercenaries or Peltastai on the right flank, some slingers in front and some cheap nasty Pantopadoi behind as an emergency reserve. No matter what enemy I fight or what composition army he has, at the end of the battle every unit will have taken casualties and done combat EXCEPT the phalanxes. The AI won't attack them from the front, from the side or from behind. They won't attack them with infantry and they won't attack them with cavalry. They will split their army in two and attack the supporting units on the flanks, completely ignoring the phalanxes at the center of the line.

Every single battle this happens, and if I just put a long line of Phalanxes with the support in lines directly behind them rather than on the flanks, the AI will split its units up all over the map and march around the side of my army to attack the second and third lines, again ignoring the phalanxes completely. It's kind of like they don't even know they're there. Invisible phalanxes. This happens on the default EB formations, Sinhuet formations and Darth formations too. It kind of makes playing as phalanx factions feel completely pointless, as I always end up using phalanxes without phalanx mode enabled since the AI won't attack them, I use them like assault infantry.

Does anybody else get this? I hope it isn't just me.

[Maeran]

The phalanx wasn't a static defensive formation. It was an aggressive line of spears that moved unstoppably across the battlefield until the enemy were engaged. Only then would flanking actions occur.

I'm simplifying a lot there, but in essence it is what you should do with your phalanx line. Move the formation forward. Attack!

You might find it useful to group the formation and then march them up to the enemy. using shift+right click helps to keep everything in order.

[I_damian]

I do do that, but the enemy still won't engage them. As I'm moving them toward the enemy, they're splitting up and moving toward the flanks of my line, completely ignoring the phalanx. They refuse to let themselves be engaged by them. I always end up disabling phalanx mode once the enemy have engaged my support on the flanks, and then using the phalanx as regular infantry to completely encircle the enemy. It feels dirty, it's so unrealistic.

Also, when I fight enemy phalanxes and I'm attacking, because I use formation mod they always line up their phalanxes properly to form a solid line, so I send mine against them by shift+rightclick behind the enemy phalanx line, and mine always get annihlated. If I'm using Pezhetairoi or Agyraspidai and the enemy are using levy phalanxes, mine still get ripped apart and cause little or no damage to theirs.

[Vasiliyi]

QUOTE=I_damian;2053348938]Also, when I fight enemy phalanxes and I'm attacking, because I use formation mod they always line up their phalanxes properly to form a solid line, so I send mine against them by shift+rightclick behind the enemy phalanx line, and mine always get annihlated. If I'm using Pezhetairoi or Agyraspidai and the enemy are using levy phalanxes, mine still get ripped apart and cause little or no damage to theirs.[/QUOTE]

Just a note, but if you are attacking with phalanxes, its better to take the guard mode off. They will get slaughtered otherwise. Actually I think not matter if you attacking or defending againsts phalanxes you want to have guard mode off.

[jirisys]

Isn't it obvious? Use what alexander did at Gaugamela, except now you put the phalanx on the flanks, with some cheap levies in the middle, then move the flanking phalanx and pull back the support, and presto, now they will flank you ANOTHER TIME!

~Jirisys ()

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

You could try using two or three units of cheap skirmishers in loose formation to attack the enemy front line hand to hand, pinning it in place just long enough for the pike phalanx to move up and engage. The skirmishers will of course take massive losses, but who cares, they're expendable fodder anyway.

[Sapper]

I too am a fan of the Diadochi and therefore more often than not have armies with phalanxes. My experience with them is not quite the same, however. The AI does, more often than not, attack the flanks but to some extent that is good news - the AI showing a bit of sense?! But as I usually have only one or two units of Peltastai or Thureophoroi on each flank of my phalanxes they, the phalanxes, invariably get involved in the fighting too. Also I fing the AI has a bit of a thing about attacking cavalry so that setting up with cavalry out on your flanks encourages the tendency of the AI to ignore the phalanxes. I therefore usually set up my cavalry behind my main line of infantry moving them out to a flank and into the rear of the enemy only once he has committed himself.

Attacking with phalanxes is tricky but can be done effectively if you are both careful and patient. However, I tend to use a defensive-offensive strategy, that is trying to get the AI to attack me even though I am strategically attacking. I normally continue a siege until the defenders sally or a relief army attacks me and in the field placing my army in the ZOC of an enemy stack often causes it to attack. This does not always work, sometimes I need to assault a town or attack in the field but phalanxes are at their best on defence. You really cannot beat them for defending in street fighting inside a city either. I invariably use my phalanxes in guard mode, they take few casualties and will wear down almost any opponent in time, but it does take time.

Phalanxes are excellent if used properly, despite the AI! I particularly enjoy fighting the Romans, as long as you have the proper supporting troops, particularly good cavalry, and are able to fight in the classic way you can give them a real beating.

[Randal]

Some tricks I use to solve this:

- Place skirmishers (peltasts, slingers, akontistai) in front of the phalanx in a thin line in loose formation. This was usually done historically + the AI really likes to attack skirmishers. When my light troops move back through the gaps between the phalangites, the enemy gets caught on the sarissa points and finds themselves fighting the phalanx.

- Place the flank-guards like the thureophoroi and thorakitai a bit further back. Not behind the phalanx, on the wings as normal, but some 10-15 meters further back than the phalanx is. Makes it harder for the enemy to just flank them.

- Sapper is very right about the cavalry. I never place these on the flanks anymore despite their historical deployment because it makes half the enemy heavy spearmen run off to try and fight them. Even phalanxes try to march across the field to chase them sometimes. Eh. Better to keep them back behind your lines. With my Romans I've had some actual historical cavalry-versus-cavalry battles this way as I sent my auxiliary horsemen to intercept enemy flanking manoeuvres.

[I_damian]

All good advice. I've got plenty to try and will be firing up a Seleukid campaign very soon. Thanks everybody.

Edit - Nope, still totally pointless. I've had many battles, but one in particular I just got done fighting, I had 8 units of phalanx all side by side forming a solid line, on the flanks but a bit back (as Randal suggested) some Thureophoroi and Peltasts and behind those - Cavalry. 2 units of slingers in loose formation in front of the phalanxes. Enemy just bypassed the entire front line, marched AROUND my army, and engaged the very end units of thureoph/peltasts. Half way through the battle not a single unit of Phalanxes had been touched by missiles or infantry or anything else, so one by one I started taking them out of phalanx and off guard mode and using them like legionnaires. By the end of the battle I'd used every single one like legionnaires. Not one pike had been jabbed at the enemy, lol.

And in attack they're terrible. Shift + right click behind the enemy results in them doing some very, very strange things when they actually engage the foe. And right clicking to attack the enemy whilst in phalanx mode is just hilarious. 50% of the time they engage the enemy with the pikes, then TURN AROUND and point their pikes AWAY from the enemy, and let the enemy hack them to pieces from behind.

I'm going to have to go back to playing as Carthage and Rome. This absolute refusal of the AI to march its army toward mine and attack is just too much for me. I don't want to have to engage individual units for an entire battle, I want armies to meet and fight.

[Ibrahim]

All good advice. I've got plenty to try and will be firing up a Seleukid campaign very soon. Thanks everybody.

Edit - Nope, still totally pointless. I've had many battles, but one in particular I just got done fighting, I had 8 units of phalanx all side by side forming a solid line, on the flanks but a bit back (as Randal suggested) some Thureophoroi and Peltasts and behind those - Cavalry. 2 units of slingers in loose formation in front of the phalanxes. Enemy just bypassed the entire front line, marched AROUND my army, and engaged the very end units of thureoph/peltasts. Half way through the battle not a single unit of Phalanxes had been touched by missiles or infantry or anything else, so one by one I started taking them out of phalanx and off guard mode and using them like legionnaires. By the end of the battle I'd used every single one like legionnaires. Not one pike had been jabbed at the enemy, lol.

And in attack they're terrible. Shift + right click behind the enemy results in them doing some very, very strange things when they actually engage the foe. And right clicking to attack the enemy whilst in phalanx mode is just hilarious. 50% of the time they engage the enemy with the pikes, then TURN AROUND and point their pikes AWAY from the enemy, and let the enemy hack them to pieces from behind.

I'm going to have to go back to playing as Carthage and Rome. This absolute refusal of the AI to march its army toward mine and attack is just too much for me. I don't want to have to engage individual units for an entire battle, I want armies to meet and fight.

I'm going to have to see a video of that battle. that just doesn't sound right. maybe the computer is affecting the engine?

[YD23]

Are you playing on a mac by chance? I've been playing EB on my macbook pro on my summer vacation and phalanxes have major issues on the mac rome port. (for example 1 on 1 phalanx v phalanx will just stand in front of each other and go in and out of fight mode. Basically not attacking unless you make one walk through into the enemy unit)

[MButcher]

Have you tried alternating between phalanxes and support troops in the same line? Like this:

----Peltast----Phalanx----Peltast----Phalanx----Peltast

In my experience this always draws the enemy phalanxes toward the line. They still don't attack your phalanxes, but it is an improvement.

[Sapper]

All good advice. I've got plenty to try and will be firing up a Seleukid campaign very soon. Thanks everybody.

Edit - Nope, still totally pointless. I've had many battles, but one in particular I just got done fighting, I had 8 units of phalanx all side by side forming a solid line, on the flanks but a bit back (as Randal suggested) some Thureophoroi and Peltasts and behind those - Cavalry. 2 units of slingers in loose formation in front of the phalanxes. Enemy just bypassed the entire front line, marched AROUND my army, and engaged the very end units of thureoph/peltasts. Half way through the battle not a single unit of Phalanxes had been touched by missiles or infantry or anything else, so one by one I started taking them out of phalanx and off guard mode and using them like legionnaires. By the end of the battle I'd used every single one like legionnaires. Not one pike had been jabbed at the enemy, lol.

And in attack they're terrible. Shift + right click behind the enemy results in them doing some very, very strange things when they actually engage the foe. And right clicking to attack the enemy whilst in phalanx mode is just hilarious. 50% of the time they engage the enemy with the pikes, then TURN AROUND and point their pikes AWAY from the enemy, and let the enemy hack them to pieces from behind.

I'm going to have to go back to playing as Carthage and Rome. This absolute refusal of the AI to march its army toward mine and attack is just too much for me. I don't want to have to engage individual units for an entire battle, I want armies to meet and fight.

I agree with Ibrahim, this just doesn't sound right. Regardless of my previous post on this I never experience anything as bad as you obviously do. In fact I suffer from the stupid AI impaling units on my sarissas, including enemy FMs, much more often than having the phalanxes ignored. Obvoiusly there are times when the AI marches off to a flank and I have to swing my whole line around to face the enemy but then they will usually attack my line, phalanxes and all. I really have no idea what is causing your problem, and as a fan of the Diadochi and their way of fighting I am sorry for you.

[I_damian]

I can't get any videos, I can try to get some screenshots though I guess. I'm not playing on a mac, I'm on PC, RTW 1.5.exe.

[Randal]

I do notice the AI sometimes manoeuvring strangely, particularly if they sally from a settlement or if they bring reinforcements.

While they're going around your army, do you try to turn your army to keep facing their centre? If not, why not? If on the defensive you can usually redeploy much more quickly than the enemy can go around you. If need be, take your troops out of phalanx mode temporarily and make them run to the new position. This didn't happen historically, but neither did armies walk in circles around eachother on the battlefield.

Attacking with phalanxes works fine for me. The facing backwards thing is a guard-mode bug and also happens to my legionaries. You can fix it (as shown in this invaluable thread among many other things.) but it's annoying.

The right-click behind the lines thing works best for me when I'm attacking and the enemy line is being nicely immobile. I send my phalanx in first, keeping my other troops back to plug any gaps that might appear while attacking. I also pay close attention to stop the phalanx at the right moment, sometimes they keep walking too long.

When I have unengaged phalanx units I do not use them as legionaries, instead I draw them up behind/to the flank of the enemy facing the right direction via the right-click-drag method and then have them move forward "behind" the enemy to attack. Works fine, especially against outnumbered enemy phalanxes in siege-battles and such. The enemy gets stabbed to death from all sides.