Phalanxes seem kind of... pointless

[Vasiliyi]

QUOTE=I_damian;2053348938]Also, when I fight enemy phalanxes and I'm attacking, because I use formation mod they always line up their phalanxes properly to form a solid line, so I send mine against them by shift+rightclick behind the enemy phalanx line, and mine always get annihlated. If I'm using Pezhetairoi or Agyraspidai and the enemy are using levy phalanxes, mine still get ripped apart and cause little or no damage to theirs.[/QUOTE]

Just a note, but if you are attacking with phalanxes, its better to take the guard mode off. They will get slaughtered otherwise. Actually I think not matter if you attacking or defending againsts phalanxes you want to have guard mode off.

[jirisys]

Isn't it obvious? Use what alexander did at Gaugamela, except now you put the phalanx on the flanks, with some cheap levies in the middle, then move the flanking phalanx and pull back the support, and presto, now they will flank you ANOTHER TIME!

~Jirisys ()

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

You could try using two or three units of cheap skirmishers in loose formation to attack the enemy front line hand to hand, pinning it in place just long enough for the pike phalanx to move up and engage. The skirmishers will of course take massive losses, but who cares, they're expendable fodder anyway.

[Sapper]

I too am a fan of the Diadochi and therefore more often than not have armies with phalanxes. My experience with them is not quite the same, however. The AI does, more often than not, attack the flanks but to some extent that is good news - the AI showing a bit of sense?! But as I usually have only one or two units of Peltastai or Thureophoroi on each flank of my phalanxes they, the phalanxes, invariably get involved in the fighting too. Also I fing the AI has a bit of a thing about attacking cavalry so that setting up with cavalry out on your flanks encourages the tendency of the AI to ignore the phalanxes. I therefore usually set up my cavalry behind my main line of infantry moving them out to a flank and into the rear of the enemy only once he has committed himself.

Attacking with phalanxes is tricky but can be done effectively if you are both careful and patient. However, I tend to use a defensive-offensive strategy, that is trying to get the AI to attack me even though I am strategically attacking. I normally continue a siege until the defenders sally or a relief army attacks me and in the field placing my army in the ZOC of an enemy stack often causes it to attack. This does not always work, sometimes I need to assault a town or attack in the field but phalanxes are at their best on defence. You really cannot beat them for defending in street fighting inside a city either. I invariably use my phalanxes in guard mode, they take few casualties and will wear down almost any opponent in time, but it does take time.

Phalanxes are excellent if used properly, despite the AI! I particularly enjoy fighting the Romans, as long as you have the proper supporting troops, particularly good cavalry, and are able to fight in the classic way you can give them a real beating.

[Randal]

Some tricks I use to solve this:

- Place skirmishers (peltasts, slingers, akontistai) in front of the phalanx in a thin line in loose formation. This was usually done historically + the AI really likes to attack skirmishers. When my light troops move back through the gaps between the phalangites, the enemy gets caught on the sarissa points and finds themselves fighting the phalanx.

- Place the flank-guards like the thureophoroi and thorakitai a bit further back. Not behind the phalanx, on the wings as normal, but some 10-15 meters further back than the phalanx is. Makes it harder for the enemy to just flank them.

- Sapper is very right about the cavalry. I never place these on the flanks anymore despite their historical deployment because it makes half the enemy heavy spearmen run off to try and fight them. Even phalanxes try to march across the field to chase them sometimes. Eh. Better to keep them back behind your lines. With my Romans I've had some actual historical cavalry-versus-cavalry battles this way as I sent my auxiliary horsemen to intercept enemy flanking manoeuvres.

[I_damian]

All good advice. I've got plenty to try and will be firing up a Seleukid campaign very soon. Thanks everybody.

Edit - Nope, still totally pointless. I've had many battles, but one in particular I just got done fighting, I had 8 units of phalanx all side by side forming a solid line, on the flanks but a bit back (as Randal suggested) some Thureophoroi and Peltasts and behind those - Cavalry. 2 units of slingers in loose formation in front of the phalanxes. Enemy just bypassed the entire front line, marched AROUND my army, and engaged the very end units of thureoph/peltasts. Half way through the battle not a single unit of Phalanxes had been touched by missiles or infantry or anything else, so one by one I started taking them out of phalanx and off guard mode and using them like legionnaires. By the end of the battle I'd used every single one like legionnaires. Not one pike had been jabbed at the enemy, lol.

And in attack they're terrible. Shift + right click behind the enemy results in them doing some very, very strange things when they actually engage the foe. And right clicking to attack the enemy whilst in phalanx mode is just hilarious. 50% of the time they engage the enemy with the pikes, then TURN AROUND and point their pikes AWAY from the enemy, and let the enemy hack them to pieces from behind.

I'm going to have to go back to playing as Carthage and Rome. This absolute refusal of the AI to march its army toward mine and attack is just too much for me. I don't want to have to engage individual units for an entire battle, I want armies to meet and fight.

[Ibrahim]

All good advice. I've got plenty to try and will be firing up a Seleukid campaign very soon. Thanks everybody.

Edit - Nope, still totally pointless. I've had many battles, but one in particular I just got done fighting, I had 8 units of phalanx all side by side forming a solid line, on the flanks but a bit back (as Randal suggested) some Thureophoroi and Peltasts and behind those - Cavalry. 2 units of slingers in loose formation in front of the phalanxes. Enemy just bypassed the entire front line, marched AROUND my army, and engaged the very end units of thureoph/peltasts. Half way through the battle not a single unit of Phalanxes had been touched by missiles or infantry or anything else, so one by one I started taking them out of phalanx and off guard mode and using them like legionnaires. By the end of the battle I'd used every single one like legionnaires. Not one pike had been jabbed at the enemy, lol.

And in attack they're terrible. Shift + right click behind the enemy results in them doing some very, very strange things when they actually engage the foe. And right clicking to attack the enemy whilst in phalanx mode is just hilarious. 50% of the time they engage the enemy with the pikes, then TURN AROUND and point their pikes AWAY from the enemy, and let the enemy hack them to pieces from behind.

I'm going to have to go back to playing as Carthage and Rome. This absolute refusal of the AI to march its army toward mine and attack is just too much for me. I don't want to have to engage individual units for an entire battle, I want armies to meet and fight.

I'm going to have to see a video of that battle. that just doesn't sound right. maybe the computer is affecting the engine?

[Sapper]

All good advice. I've got plenty to try and will be firing up a Seleukid campaign very soon. Thanks everybody.

Edit - Nope, still totally pointless. I've had many battles, but one in particular I just got done fighting, I had 8 units of phalanx all side by side forming a solid line, on the flanks but a bit back (as Randal suggested) some Thureophoroi and Peltasts and behind those - Cavalry. 2 units of slingers in loose formation in front of the phalanxes. Enemy just bypassed the entire front line, marched AROUND my army, and engaged the very end units of thureoph/peltasts. Half way through the battle not a single unit of Phalanxes had been touched by missiles or infantry or anything else, so one by one I started taking them out of phalanx and off guard mode and using them like legionnaires. By the end of the battle I'd used every single one like legionnaires. Not one pike had been jabbed at the enemy, lol.

And in attack they're terrible. Shift + right click behind the enemy results in them doing some very, very strange things when they actually engage the foe. And right clicking to attack the enemy whilst in phalanx mode is just hilarious. 50% of the time they engage the enemy with the pikes, then TURN AROUND and point their pikes AWAY from the enemy, and let the enemy hack them to pieces from behind.

I'm going to have to go back to playing as Carthage and Rome. This absolute refusal of the AI to march its army toward mine and attack is just too much for me. I don't want to have to engage individual units for an entire battle, I want armies to meet and fight.

I agree with Ibrahim, this just doesn't sound right. Regardless of my previous post on this I never experience anything as bad as you obviously do. In fact I suffer from the stupid AI impaling units on my sarissas, including enemy FMs, much more often than having the phalanxes ignored. Obvoiusly there are times when the AI marches off to a flank and I have to swing my whole line around to face the enemy but then they will usually attack my line, phalanxes and all. I really have no idea what is causing your problem, and as a fan of the Diadochi and their way of fighting I am sorry for you.