Netherworld III: Final Judgment [Concluded]

[johnhughthom]

Nevertheless, it would be also good to have jht explain why he's been so fluff-filled.

I haven't had any meaningful contact with anybody else in the game, all I have is fluff.

[Death is yonder]

Unvote; Chaotix
Vote: jht

So does this count as meaningful contact?

j/k

Unvote; JHT
Vote: Chaotix

[Beskar]

Actually, I have noticed something very bizarre.

Why hasn't Khazaar been wog'd yet? He hasn't voted for ages upon ages while other people have been wogged or replaced?

Is it because he sends in Night Orders or similar?

Vote: Khazaar

[Yaropolk]

My kill makes me feel warm and fuzzy...I'll tell you why after the end of the game.

[Beskar]

Disregard last vote, forgot that GH accused Chaotix and it would be Chaotix's style to kill GH.

unvote; vote: Chaotix

If Khazaar is not wogged, it would be save to lynch him on the good bet he is mafia.

[Ironside]

I'd like to inquire as to how you came to the conclusion. On a quick skim I don't really see it mentioned anywhere.

Nevertheless, it would be also good to have jht explain why he's been so fluff-filled.

The jht-glyph connection is that jht has switched votes twice saving glyph.

Renata's scan on glyph says he's lying about being a normal townie. While it doesn't say anything about Renata's alignment, her thread behavior is consistant with what she claimed.

Oh, he's also a confirmed lier. Possibly a joke post, but there's things like hiding in plain sight.

Order's coming right up.

Might be my own inexperience, but I did also find the early drive towards TLD a bit odd and glypz post stood out there.

Hmmm....
Isn't it that lynching 'random someone' is potentially a 'disaster' lynch, since everyone, unrevealed, has a possibility of having a pro-town role?

You claim that you are a pro-town civilian...
so I'm assuming you're not a pro-town power role...
But you may be lying & actually be scum...
That means...
Your lynch has the least potential of being a 'disaster!'


Vote: TheLastDays

And than the post that made Renata go after him:

There's probably a 3 vote lead bet G_E & the next canditate, & at least 10 nonvoters.

Vote: God_Emperor for safe measure...

Why I think they're cult and not mafia. After White_Eyes was lynched, the number of night kills dropped, indicating that he was mafia. Glyph and jht haven't acted like they were allied with white eyes though, rather the opposite, so if I'm correct that they're not basic townies, then they are likely not aligned with mafia. Main option left is cult.

Edit: Cult also better explains the high risks glyph took there for a while.

[Earthling]

Bunch of stuff on a bunch of people. We lack far too many votes when just a few more active townies should help wrap this up right now. Living people need to
a) vote
b) provide reasons for their votes

If you're townie and not doing this, you're hurting at this point.

So the case on Chaotix is bad. Specifically, it's just flat out wrong to interpret his votes as a real effort to save white_eyes unless you have some extreme assumptions (say TLD, white_eyes, and chaotix were all scum together.) There's no way a scum, wanting to save his partner, would go out of his way to antagonize random townies and set themselves up for suspicion later when the option of pushing a lynch on clearly scummy alternatives could have saved his partner. Plus, Chaotix really lacks the negative connections to any prior scum-heavy events like the GE or attempted TLD lynches.

It's also just a much better, common sense assumption, that the accusations against Chaotix by a cultist and a serial killer, were just because they were trying to defend themselves and not because of anything inherent to Chaotix's role.

So to summarize that, Chaotix could be anything, but the connection to white_eyes just isn't a good case, it's doubtful he really would have acted like he did as scum and be so ineffective. Of course, choxorn and johnhughthom are hardly better lynches right now either. Out of the three I'd probably take johnhughthom but that's an awful choice to be in, other options are much better.

If Khazaar is not wogged, it would be save to lynch him on the good bet he is mafia.

autolycus and Blackadder I think have fewer votes and actually qualify for the WoK as per explicit game rules. I don't think Khaazar has missed 4 votes total and maybe not 3 in a row either- those two have I think. At any rate, I'd say you're right that they should be left for a day or two more and then if WoK action is not taken we have to get rid of them before the endgame, for now we have better priorities.

I had some more to say about Renata being scummy and assumptions of what went on with her being wrong, but it seemed like that would not really be helping decide anything now and we can't ultimately rule out third party alignment for sure on glyphz. So just moving on to glyphz unless people really think that discussion is needed, I'll leave it be. He could be some cult or third party, but he's been roleblocked so many times that his effectiveness would be nullified if he's anyone that mattered too, and his near lynches suggest at best a mere cult recruit.

Basically, it's not an unreasonable hypothesis that glyphz and jht could be cult, but it also doesn't seem like much to worry about right now and of course could simply be not true and just paranoia anyway. They're clearly not mafia or killers, clearly not allied in one big, dangerous cult with the late Andres and GH, and have been acting and voting against the mafia even if they are cult and ultimately anti-town. Unless we make a brutal assumption of multiple anti-town, cult-like groups we still have to deal with on limited reveals, it's more likely taking out Andres and GH was what we needed and not yet another third party group.

[Chaotix]

Vote: TheLastDays

I'd rather not sit around and be lynched today.

However, can't defend myself from "gut feeling" and "it would be his style".

Do what you will.

[Beskar]

At any rate, I'd say you're right that they should be left for a day or two more and then if WoK action is not taken we have to get rid of them before the endgame, for now we have better priorities.

Agreed. Because if they are not wogged, there might be explanations such as night actions which have influenced their longevity.

I don't think there might be a john-glyph connection, as far as I have seen. Could you point this out for me or refer to the post you did, so I have a better understanding about your argument of this?

[Yaropolk]

Obviously I cannot reveal any night actions, but please don't forget Zack - I don't think glyphz or chaotix are worth the lynch.

[Earthling]

I don't think there might be a john-glyph connection, as far as I have seen. Could you point this out for me or refer to the post you did, so I have a better understanding about your argument of this?

I was mostly responding to Ironside.

edit - I can further clarify this, in writing that post I was going to quote Ironside, discuss some things about Renata and then move on, I took out the stuff about Renata because I figured people wouldn't read it or care, but the paragraph structure in my prior post makes it seem like I might have continued talking to you, I can see that.

I think Ironside just today pointed out/linked to everything that needs to be said. john clearly changed his votes on the fluffy-wagon and ATPG-wagon day, so effectively he did help in saving glyphz. However, I'm saying I wouldn't hold it against them because:

-the result of those votes was that we seemed to have lynched non-townies at least once in the case of fluffy and pizza anyway, if not both of them
-glyphz, as now has been said by many people in public, was known to have been roleblocked and not a killer
-none of the other votes by glyphz/jht look too bad, nor show any connections to other mafia/cultists/sk we think are already dead

So we have evidence of a possible connection is all, I have to agree with that. There could be no connection just as easily though and its just a coincidence. Given that there are cultist out there, a theory they could be recruits in some cult isn't impossible, but at the same time doesn't seem worth bothering to me.

[Earthling]

Also mentioning something that I just checked for those curious. Khazaar voted the first six days and just missed the last two, so not woggable yet.

[TheLastDays]

The jht-glyph connection is that jht has switched votes twice saving glyph.

The problem is, the first time JHT put glyphz into real danger in the first place, late in the day. That would be some ballsy play were they allied. Doesn't say anything aobut them, they could still both be scum (1 Mafia and 1 Cult) but I doubt they are allied.

Can someone enlighten me what the case on Zack was? I'm not too thrilled with the Chaotix case anymore and Yaro's post makes me want to look into Zack but I'm at work so my time is limited.

[Ironside]

Vote: TheLastDays

I'd rather not sit around and be lynched today.

However, can't defend myself from "gut feeling" and "it would be his style".

Do what you will.

You could explain why you came up with the odd conclusion of not to lynch power roles was the lesson learned from Midgard. Since 2 known powerroles was scum and most of the early townie exposure didn't come from lynching but from duels.

Defending White_Eyes is one thing (although he has pretty much confirmed himself as a non townie based on later behavior), doing it with a flawed defense is another.

[autolycus]

Sorry that I haven't been paying as much attention to this game as I should have. Chaotix isn't feeling scummy to me, so I'll vote; TheLastDays.

[Diamondeye]

I have absolutely no idea what is going on. Also, I am going to Vote:Chaotix

[GeneralHankerchief]

FoS autolycus ; Diamondeye

That excuse at this point in the game = scum searching for a case.

[TheLastDays]

Sorry that I haven't been paying as much attention to this game as I should have. Chaotix isn't feeling scummy to me, so I'll vote; TheLastDays.

But I do? Combined with the lame excuse of not paying attention I'd just like to hear your reasoning for that vote.

[Earthling]

Can someone enlighten me what the case on Zack was?

Zack deflected a scan ability when someone tried to scan him, and was attacked by a serial killer and survived. (well, possible sk-ish neutral, no perfect guarantee of what Axeguy was as a character). Zack still has given no explanation, other than "the killer must not have a 100% chance of killing." We had two townies killed by said killer while the other surviver was GE, a non-human, non-townie.

Also, Zack has voted to lynch several townies and in defense of a couple of possible cultists/scum.

[Diamondeye]

FoS autolycus ; Diamondeye

That excuse at this point in the game = scum searching for a case.

Sorry for just having begun University today. Also, scum.

[TheLastDays]

Zack deflected a scan ability when someone tried to scan him, and was attacked by a serial killer and survived. (well, possible sk-ish neutral, no perfect guarantee of what Axeguy was as a character). Zack still has given no explanation, other than "the killer must not have a 100% chance of killing." We had two townies killed by said killer while the other surviver was GE, a non-human, non-townie.

Also, Zack has voted to lynch several townies and in defense of a couple of possible cultists/scum.

Well parts of this case make sense, others don't. I still don't see how being non-human is an indication of anything in this setup. Most of the followers of Mainyu will be some kind of weird beings just as the attackers and probably most third parties. GH's character (the axeguy) complained about the Gods and Demons taking over his realm (I guess he's some kind of character from the area around Babylon).

Did we have scan results on GE that showed that he was active on Night 1? If not, why are we sure he was a power role of some sorts? I'm not trying to keep looking back at old stuff but basing the case against Zack on the flawed case against GE is not a good idea.

The rest of the case makes much more sense and now I remember that Zack didn't have an explanation for deflecting the scan either. This is actually evidence for some power being involved in surviving the attack and that brings new light to the case against GE, not vice versa.

It might get me lynched but I'll unvote, vote: Zack for now.

[autolycus]

This stuff about Zack seems a better lead than anything else. unvote; vote: Zack.

[Earthling]

Did we have scan results on GE that showed that he was active on Night 1? If not, why are we sure he was a power role of some sorts?

Yeah, again, if you "don't remember" Renata claims she saw GE active, presumably killing someone (N2). If you were a townie you could believe at least one of GE or Renata has be wholly scum and was lying but one of those conclusions should really be very obvious.

[Riedquat]

Apart from the people I mentioned earlier I'm not inclined against any of the current candidates for today at the point I almost agree with the FoSing of GeneralAxeChief.

Following dead townies advice here, vote: Zack

[Andres]

Finally, they're voting Zack

Don't forget to get rid of Beskar before you reach end-game. He's clearly manipulating the lot of you.

[TheLastDays]

This stuff about Zack seems a better lead than anything else. unvote; vote: Zack.

This isn't any better than your vote on me and it'll not get you off my radar.

[Chaotix]

You could explain why you came up with the odd conclusion of not to lynch power roles was the lesson learned from Midgard. Since 2 known powerroles was scum and most of the early townie exposure didn't come from lynching but from duels.

Defending White_Eyes is one thing (although he has pretty much confirmed himself as a non townie based on later behavior), doing it with a flawed defense is another.

Fair enough, you have a point. Thinking about Midgard when I made that statement, I was mainly considering the deaths of the God roles and the lynches of the Kings and Champions (granted, didn't really have powers), and how frustrated it made me in the endgame that we had seemingly no pro-towns left to take on a full mafia team. I hadn't considered Loki and the princess, and you bring up a good point about that.

My main criticism of lynching the power roles is from Netherworld II, though (which seems somehow more relevant), where I was lynched as a suspicious-looking but definitely pro-town power role. I don't remember whether town or mafia won that one, but I DO remember being pretty pissed off about that.

Fortunately for us, I do agree that it looks like White_eyes was not a suspicious looking pro-town, but probably a mafioso.

Unvote, Vote: Zack

This is essentially self-preservation, but I do believe there's more evidence on Zack than on TLD.

[Zack]

I've already said I'm just a vanilla townie. That's the truth. If you want a waste a lynch on me because of my refusal to lie about my role, then feel free to do so.

IIRC the deflected scan on me was due to a bus driver switch, but I'm not really sure. Again, I'm just vanilla.

[Choxorn]

Well, looks like john isn't getting lynched. Between the two of them, Zack is far more scummy than Chaotix, so Unvote, Vote: Zack

[Captain Blackadder]

Vote: the last days

Sorry I have being sick for the past few days and on teaching rounds before that so I will attempt to catch up.