Netherworld III: Final Judgment [Concluded]

[Earthling]

Chaotix, as it's looking like Beskar got recruited by the cult at some recent point, if you told him your roleblock plans he probably shared them with the rest of the cult.

Then Hades, if he's a member of the cult, found that out that way. So hopefully that could be avoided again.

And it really is looking like Hades is with the cult, raw chance at least is favorable, and the claim is the cult recruits don't even get their identities revealed or victory conditions affected, so Hades is probably some assumed nobody recruit who has been riding out the cult crusade to eliminate people the whole time.

I actually believe the cult is not anti-town, in the sense that the only reason they matter is for the cult leader's victory condition and defeating other neutrals somehow, plus Andres and GH and the possibility of just a rival cult group, but then it's especially likely Hades could just pretend to be a cult recruit.

[Beskar]

Chaotix, as it's looking like Beskar got recruited by the cult at some recent point, if you told him your roleblock plans he probably shared them with the rest of the cult.

Then Hades, if he's a member of the cult, found that out that way. So hopefully that could be avoided again.

Chaotix posted it in thread, but still. Hades (can we even confirm that? as pizza said) could apparently kill through protection as well, why would they be worried about Chaotix possibly having protection?

Even then, I wanted TLD being roleblocked as I thought he was the killer.

[Chaotix]

I have no idea. Could have been a number of things. Maybe the kill-through-protection was a one-time thing only to keep him from being overpowered. Maybe Earthling was an imperfect doctor to begin with, or became imperfect over time, maybe ALL doctors are imperfect.

Maybe it's a combination of that and the mafia thinking they'd be able to frame me successfully, what with the cult also out for my head during the past three or four lynch votes.

[Beskar]

I don't think the cult has been trying to lynch you over the last few rounds. Only in that round where I possibly did because I did suspect you then but I changed my vote since it seemed the most sensible option.

However, a lot of the arguments underpinning my vote change well.. have collapsed.

If you end up getting lynched off and you are not the mafia, you have my reassurance that these arguments and me voting for you is purely based on the fact I am suspecting you of being the killer. There is no other "motives" involved in that decision. If I was working for the cult and I thought you was a roleblocker, I would have told them to leave you in the game because a roleblocker would have been very effective against the night killer or sounds like it would be.

and when I typed that, I just realised something...

You said he can kill through protection right? What is to say he cannot kill through a roleblock?

[Chaotix]

That would be so powerful as to be game breaking, but however unlikely it is possible. That would render my role all but useless then- only good for catching lesser scums or cultists I guess? I think it's unlikely.

What I do think is likely, though, is if I tried to roleblock him and he tried to kill me at the same time, the kill would win out (assuming I was unprotected). So you can assume that when I find the right suspect, if Hades knows about... I will be attacked at the very least.

[Earthling]

What is to say he cannot kill through a roleblock?

I already said that was easily possible, you just must not have read it.

edit- Chaotix, the thing is it was probably not along. The possible explanation is Hades (and it's true, we have no reason to know for sure the role is Hades but we're killing him that) gained more power upon being the last mafia left

If you are not personally part of the cult you have no reason to vote Chaotix here. There's no real evidence against him.

In fact, if Hades isn't part of the cult at all, he has to kill another cultist tonight no matter what given their numbers, or else he automatically loses. Looking at the last kills in light of that you should reach the right conclusion. It should still be even more obvious soon whether he's been in the cult the whole time and we don't need to help him along. An even worse reason to attempt a lynch of Chaotix now, but someone like MRD or Warman could work.

[Beskar]

If you are not personally part of the cult you have no reason to vote Chaotix here. There's no real evidence against him.

That's not true, there is evidence against him, but it is mostly all suspect, and that is how a mafia game works. The problem is, there is more case against Chaotix than anyone else, you could just say "Vote off Warman, he isn't a good player" but then that is not really a real reason for him to be scum, it is a case of "Chaotix is the better player".

And Chaotix is a very good player, he would be very smart if he is scum. He would know what was against him, or a good idea and he knows how to play it into his advantage. My argument against him is more based on what a player at his skill level would do in his situation, he would be very crafty and my argument against him is based on his ruthlessness and intelligence, sort of a "If I was in Chaotix's position, what would I do?".

There would be no way to ever find out Chaotix is truely pro-town and same for him being mafia either, he is not a bad player and there is nothing in the game which would prove him for what he is or what he isn't.

Fact is, there is a great bunch of circumstances which are pointing it at being towards Chaotix. You might struggle to see it, I cannot really help you understand my logic more than I already said, I am not as eloquent as some one like AskthePizzaGuy.

If I am wrong, I am wrong. I cannot really change that, but i am completely oblivious to who else it could realistically be. At last hours before the write-up, I was "The Last Days" as my number 1, and "Classical_Hero" as my number 2, since having two pro-town's at this point might be a bit fishy. What made it swap to Chaotix is how Classical was adamant he was a power-role, the reviver and couldn't be recruited because he is a 'god'. Being honest, I don't know if he is or not, but assume that he was telling the truth at that moment of time, then he ends up recruited by the cult, this changes the situation.

Only people so far who couldn't be recruited were two confirmed scums. Chaotix is a third one which couldn't, but the argument was is was a god. Now Classical_Hero, another God got recruited by the cult...

I think we can easily do it this way, the cult would obviously be reading this, so if I am incorrect, I am sure they will pull-rank on Classical_Hero and kill him off as well. Then with both of them missing, we end up playing the game of "Lets randomly lynch people till the scum is dead".

[Earthling]

The problem is, there is more case against Chaotix than anyone else

There are people still alive who defended and placed votes to support known scum God Emperor and very likely scum Renata. That's better evidence.

"If I was in Chaotix's position, what would I do?".

If he was scum, he certainly wouldn't kill off suspicious townies and guarantee he automatically gets lynched by the cult. How can you possibly think Hades is a complete outsider who cannot infiltrate the cult? If Hades was not already a member of the cult, he would be killing cultists which would be his only way to avoid an automatic loss.

Only people so far who couldn't be recruited were two confirmed scums.

The problem is this isn't true. One of them at least was clearly a neutral who only opposed this cult in an independent way.

Then with both of them missing, we end up playing the game of "Lets randomly lynch people till the scum is dead".

Yes, and it's insane to purposefully kill off townies first so you can then start that game. woad&fangs lynch was bad enough as he did kinda imply he was cult himself but townies need to place useful votes.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Aren't you glad you didn't lynch TLD now?

I'm just happy I wasn't wasting my breath.

Get Hades, or else I'll be really upset with yall.

[Earthling]

Every indication is that lynching woad&fangs was worse, and several other past lynches it would have been better to have another townie not die in place of TLD.

The cult is claiming you were a cultist, any thoughts on that?

If Chaotix is lynched today any townies left might as well give up and lynch randomly, they won't have the votes to prevent the cult's failed voting strategy against Hades nor any further evidence to go on.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Every indication is that lynching woad&fangs was worse, and several other past lynches it would have been better to have another townie not die in place of TLD.

He's dead now. So that just saved you from lynching him, and it spared everyone else who was more valuable to the town.

You lost this point. This point is MINE.

The cult is claiming you were a cultist, any thoughts on that?

Sure, I have thoughts on that. Except I'm dead.

My loyalty has always been to the town. Revive me and I'll say more. Otherwise, leave me dead. I've said everything I know of which will assist the town. All I had info on was TLD, he's dead now. Therefore I have no further info, and I've saved you from one terrible lynch.

I've done my duty to the town. Now you guys must lynch Hades.

Further debate about myself and TLD is pointless, focus on Hades.

[Major Robert Dump]

How did I go from being a not possibly a suspect due to the timing of my replacement (i.e. the killings happened before I arrived) to suddenly being mentioned in every single Earthlink post on this page? It's creeping me out, I think I am being stalked. Robbie was not voting, and since he was a vanilla townie, he was also not participating in night ctions, so depsite a few posts, he was not active in the game. GO AWAY

Yeah, the cult could be mistaken. There could be a killer amongst us, I suppose, but there are also enough of us that we will police ourselves and root out the killer if and when that time comes. My goal, according to my cult PM, is to eliminate the mafia and keep the cult alive. Whether or not the leader has another goal, I do not know, other than the one where she is supposed to breed with a special character I mentioned earlier to which people responded "nice try."

So for now, I am voting the one person my dear leader says is unrecruitable, and that be vote: Chaotix.

[Earthling]

Further debate about myself and TLD is pointless, focus on Hades.

If TLD was lynched and anyone else killed at night than w&f or Chaotix, the town would be better off. Losing woad&fangs as a townie was absolutely worse than lynching TLD would have been.

Knowing what you were is important to determining what the writeups indicate. Your death showed you were not a townie, if you were cult it helps us determine who else was cult based on independent evidence.

Chaotix is not Hades and the evidence for that is better than any evidence you ever had about anyone. So get talking to people about that if you really want people to pursue Hades.

[Beskar]

The cult claims all members retain their normal victory conditions, such townies are still townies, as the cults victory conditions (get rid of the mafia, etc) is the same as the towns. So Pizza invited to the cult would still retain his township, and thus, he would still be working in the interests of the town regardless of that.

Edit:
Major Robert Dump gave us more information on that here:

My goal, according to my cult PM, is to eliminate the mafia and keep the cult alive.

[classical_hero]

Up until now my loyalities have been with the Town, but that changed last night when I got recruited by the cult. So Beskar does have god info, so that makes him less of a target. Since he is not recruitable, it does not look good for him. vote:Chaotix

[Earthling]

The cult claims all members retain their normal victory conditions

Yeah, MRD's post literally just contradicted that.

I get that cultists are going to vote with the cult. They think they have little to lose, and they're probably wrong, but it makes sense. When it gets down to 4 or 5 people left and Hades was one of the members of their cult all along they at least have another lynch or so to have a chance at it.

What is a terrible move at this point is townies going along with the cult. That cuts down on our chances of winning in every single way, and not all of you can be converted by the cult in time if that's what you're hoping for. It's like folding a pair of aces because the other guy might have a straight draw.

It could turn out to be a winning move if Hades is later lynched by sheer luck, or Hades kills the cult leader for us, or something improbable, but it's still a bad move.

[Diamondeye]

Why is Classical Hero still alive.

[Choxorn]

Only people so far who couldn't be recruited were two confirmed scums. Chaotix is a third one which couldn't, but the argument was is was a god. Now Classical_Hero, another God got recruited by the cult...

Confirmed by what?

[Major Robert Dump]

I don't claim to know all the cults victory conditions, just my own. Unsurpers within an organization are not uncommon in mafia games. I was recruited on my 2nd night in the game.

[classical_hero]

Why is Classical Hero still alive.

Cry me a river.

[Ironside]

Yes, he's a town-aligned roleblocker, the god Janus.

The two faced god?.........

Do we have any data on him being a roleblocker after the code namned killer "Hades" (since we do not have conclusive evidence that it is Hades) shows up?

Having a roleblocker turn into a killer is a nice game twist.

I might be wrong and won't bother checking through everything, but Chaotix not being killed at this point and still haven't wrapped up the game 3 nights later is odd and indicates that the killer doesn't fear Chaotix by some reason.

[Earthling]

Wow, I've come across a really crazy coincidence.

please read this people, it's extremely interesting no matter what

Had to play Devil's Advocate, the rational thing to do. So looked at some writeups, trying to figure out who mafia killers were:

Who was the green robed killer?

He does appear to be a man. Much more interesting is an extremely unusual power

A second round of knocks came, a bit more forceful this time. Still, he stayed put. Maybe twenty seconds later, a faint light shone through the bottom of the door. The door shifted colors, from dark brown to a pale yellow. A similarly colored mist began seeping into the room, blocking the door frame from view. Yaropolk heard footsteps. A oddly foreign man stepped into the room, dressed in a glittering, dark green robe, with a dark moustache and beard hanging from his chin.

Regardless, he inserted his key into the door, and twisted. The key stuck in place. He jangled it more, but to no avail.

“Having trouble?” Ironside whipped around. A bearded man, in a strange green robe was only a foot behind him.

“How? What?” Ironside stuttered out. He hadn't heard anyone approaching.

“Your door won't open, will it?” Ironside shook his head. The man nodded in response. “Good, it seems everything's in order.

It's an extremely hard to disregard clue.

Here's the ridiculous part. It kinda matches both the roles of Chaotix and classical. Especially if one of them is actually a different god/goddess and lied/has a cover identity.

From wiki:

Janus was also involved in the spatial aspect of transitions as that of presiding over home doors, city gates and boundaries

As a goddess expected to avert demons from the house or city over which she stood guard and to protect the individual as she or he passed through dangerous liminal places, Hecate would naturally become known as a goddess who could also refuse to avert the demons, or even drive them on against unfortunate individuals.[66]

It was probably her role as guardian of entrances that led to Hecate's identification by the mid fifth century with Enodia, a Thessalian goddess. Enodia's very name ("In-the-Road") suggests that she watched over entrances, for it expresses both the possibility that she stood on the main road into a city, keeping an eye on all who entered, and in the road in front of private houses, protecting their inhabitants.[67]

This function would appear to have some relationship with the iconographic association of Hecate with keys,

I was going to ask Chaotix about one other thing but that can wait, finding the second passage on Hecate made me really reconsider what's up here. Hecate also had some associations with Hades but I'm by no means a mythology expert here.

If anybody else can find mythological connections - a lot of things about both these gods are lacking. But anything about doors/keys that explains green robes and bearded man. It wouldn't be inconceivable the player just looked up and chose a different god to use as a cover role then.

[Chaotix]

Ok, if I get lynched by the cult because the townies would rather sign their own death warrants than vote with me, then I'mma be pretty pissed.

Being lynched because you're all cultists is fine. Being lynched because the ones who aren't can't be arsed to make an intelligent vote is another.

Unvote, Vote: johnhughthom

Please, let us kill the cult leader so that they can stop taking over our lynches. Beskar, you wanna lynch me, save it for tomorrow and bring it back up then. Right now if you vote me out, whether I'm pro-town as I say or scum like you think, we're all going to lose if that cult doesn't die.

[Earthling]

No, actually, forget classical/Hecate on this point. It seems far too strong of a clue related to Janus.

This leaves us with so many massive problems that I can't follow up on tonight. Or it could be false, but really confusing.

Any scenario with Chaotix as another scum leaves someone else alive as Hades to start.

And so many things he's done all game would be astoundingly ridiculous and bold moves as a scum, forgoing kills, fabricating info to make townies look Innocent, not killing off the cult which would obviously defeat him.

Still if he could explain more about who he's roleblocked and everything he knows about being Janus that would be nice.

[Earthling]

...and classical spelled Hecate wrong for no obvious reason I can imagine plus the revival of Andres doesn't really seem to mesh with her at all.

However I'm now very certain we've missed some large clues in the writeups that could help figure out what gods might have been involved in some instances.

[classical_hero]

Hekate is an alternative spelling that the host used. Even the Wiki article has that name next to the one with a 'c' and in most language the sound that a 'c' makes is similar to a 'k' sound. And since she is a Greek goddess, the Greeks did not have a 'c' in their alphabet, they had either a 'k' or a 'ch' n their alphabet, so the host is using the Greek language for the spelling.

[Earthling]

I don't really trust that classical, plus you spent way too long before coming forward. Why don't you confirm some of the members and goals of the cult?

Also, extremely crazy theory inbound. And that's saying something, maybe I'm just too tired.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Green-robes sounds way too much like Janus.

The scale armor attacker clearly sounds like Athena, cannot think of any other war goddess it would be - but outside of Greek/Roman we could have a lot, don't get me wrong, idk.

More weird, she only disappeared when I died. We still have major discrepancies between when the mafia died and who and when we lynched people. The writeup evidence points to fluffy and pizza being consecutive lynched scum with roles subsequently disappearing from writeups. That makes little sense on the voting record and player behavior of so many people. Then we have white_eyes an outside shot and Renata's lynch, despite her being the most clearly scummy behavior-wise, also after the writeup characters disappeared.

Also, I would tend to guess our original winged killer was not a Valkryie but Nike, seeing as how everyone else has been Greek/Roman. Except Ishtar and the Babylonian guy, but if that's because we know they are neutral...

So theory: the mafia either had corrupted versions of the same gods/goddesses as town power roles, or somehow mindcontrolled people into the killings.

Unforunately we can't get more confirmations of the roles of dead people I'd imagine, and it IS a very implausible theory, but on the other hand something is clearly wrong, with all the Greek/Roman town gods/goddesses and all the mafia being unknown ones we've never had revealed.

Plus Hades' or whatever he is special ability to kill other gods with his oozeblade it seems.

[classical_hero]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hekate

Hecate or Hekate (ancient Greek Ἑκάτη, Hekátē, pronounced /ˈhɛkətiː/, in Shakespeare /ˈhɛkət/^[1])

Do you believe me now?

[Chaotix]

The Green Robe Guy can't be Janus, for the simple reason that Janus has two faces. That's like his calling card, two faces- one looking into the future and the other looking into the past. There's a lot of stuff in ancient mythology that tends to be marginal and tangential. For example, Poseidon is the god of the sea, but also of horses.

Anyway Earthling, I'm perfectly capable of giving you the roleblock list, but it's also inherently a list of targets for Hades to kill. I made the mistake last round of mentioning who I was going to roleblock, and Hades jumped right on it. I give the town that list, and he'll be killing more people that aren't suspects- I'd much rather we be able to eliminate suspects by him killing them. The most prudent option, IMO, is for me to tell you when the town is heading toward a bad lynch, so we can change direction.

That said, if this is what you guys want from me to spare my life (say so), I'll give it to you.

Or, you know, we can continue down the path we're going and lynch the roleblocker and let the cult eat us. That works too.

[Earthling]

It's not that, it's that I don't trust the host used an alternate spelling. Sounds cover-roley. Also zero things in the revival of Andres match wiki stuff for Hecate that I could find, snakes for hair, torches, the moon, none of it clearly referenced.

On the Janus issue I am one for missing the stupidly obvious possibility. That would be:

Should Janus be a dead scum after all, Chaotix took a real role of his dead teammate and claimed it for himself with townie reflavoring. Still huge issues for Chaotix to be the last scum here, but somehow something must add up.

So on top of explaining his roleblock targets it would be nice if he could explain very specifically how being Janus causes him to end up doing that.

If anyone living knows, or anyone dead is able to ask khaan and then hint, what was the actual god/goddess role of our dead town scanner? Especially if it's also Greek.

xpost edit - I should trust your judgment on the roleblock info, that sounds reasonable. I know I'm out of luck trying to convince living people not to lynch you. I still wouldn't, I can say you're not Hades till my face is blue but that's no helping. So the roleblock info I wouldn't object to personally but wouldn't delude myself it will help the town/lynch here.

how's the doppelganger theory look to you? Or just too wild of a guess?

Or, anyone from Netherworld I know of plot links/interaction with Hades? Stuff that could explain why everyone, or at least main town/mafia, seem to be Greek and Roman here (and neutrals other pantheons...seems like that should really mean something if true).