Netherworld III: Final Judgment [Concluded]

[Beskar]

Chaotix give the list to me, I can guarantee it will not fall into the hands of Hades (since I am not Hades and will not share it unless prompted by you in thread) !

[Earthling]

Nobody expects the host to explain every part of every god/character's identity in each writeup. But when a clue appears, have to ask:

Who else could the clue possibly be?

Or do we think the door thing is not a clue?

Any quick search clearly identifies Janus as a very good fit. Also for example I found one more thing:

Originally one face was always bearded, the other one clean-shaven; later both bearded

I'm still obviously willing to accept you personally are not scum Chaotix. It's the characters, and the one killer sounds way too much like Athena too.

Plus the appeal of the theory is it's a brilliant game setup, should the town gods appear like the killers role reveals would be incredibly dangerous, but at the same time if they die deprives the negaverse mafia of kills or something like that.

That's too much from me now and on a new topic that really would need attention from others. However, the take on the writeup clues I mentioned right at first there is something we could use from several players. I don't see how they can not be actual clues, even if they point to a better god/explanation in the end, it's much better than blind guessing.

[TheLastDays]

Well Hades in Netherworld I was completely different. He started as a sk and after 4 killings was able to revive two players who then became his mafia buddys. In the end he won and became the new god of the underworld (formerly something-khaan). Now in this game he IS already the god of the underworld and he'd be with the invaders that want to stop Mayniu.

Anyway.

There's something I've been asking myself: If the cults sole victory condition is for Ishtar to "mate" with Mayniu to guarantee her own survival, that sounds more like a lover role than a cult leader. Why would she be able to recruit anyone for that reason? What does having a large group of followers do towards that goal? Nothing. Therefore I believe the cult has other agendas as well and we need to know what that is. Or we just blindly lynch who is very probably the cult leader (JHT) and lynch Hades tomorrow.

[Death is yonder]

Well in the end all that is being said is this:

a) Chaotix cannot be seriously using the excuse that being a god = unrecruitable because classical has disproved this, and unless you want to propose with evidence that someone else did the revive, you basically cannot dispute that the fact is that being a god does not inhibit recruitment

[You might want to nitpick that it was claimed that Andres was recruited via the revive, but what I recall the fact of the matter being was that Andres was alive long enough to have been recruited following his revival in a night phase and thus Earthling cannot so easily discount it.]

b) The fact that he is unrecruitable irrelevant of possible godhood raises the only other power role available, scumbag

Irrelevant of any other nitpick with the details you may possibly have, fact of the matter is that:

1. A revive happened
2. There is no evidence to suggest that anybody other than classical did it, which supports his claim of godhood, especially makes sense because IIRC he claimed to be god of death or something
3. It thus cannot be the case that his supposed "pro-town god" status prevented chaotix from being recruited
4. The only other logical conclusion is that Chaotix is the mafia

In any case, what is being put on the table is a chance at a united joint win, it has already been mentioned that is part of the victory conditions.

To reiterate:
You may choose a definite lose scenario by prolonging the mafia's existence

OR

You may accept a shot at a united victory that is otherwise unattainable. Unless you would like to do the most foolish thing available at hand which is to attempt to trust the mafia.

What does having a large group of followers do towards that goal?

Well for starters you could realize that you can't force the lynch, even if you solicited the mafia's help, which is definitely going to go well from a townie point of view. It isn't even a third party offering "oh let us be your vigilante for suspects", this is a clear cut mafiosi plain and simple.

Then next you could realize that we want the mafia dead, and what better way to do that than voting.

I must admit I'm torn between humor and pity that Beskar has worked out through reveals and stuff that the only way for town to possibly secure a win is to trust us (and some aren't listening to him in the 'interest of pursuing victory' which is already essentially being offered), I mean, the offer here is to work together to eliminate the mafia, contrary to what might be expected, I fail to see how that can go wrong.

Essentially what some are proposing is that you leave the mafia alive, because evidently getting rid of the mafia is somehow unimportant in the grand scheme of having more townies alive.

[woad&fangs]

The cult should reevaluate their membership including starting members. Hades may be a traitor planted in the cult like Lucifer in the first game. Secondly, the town needs to leave the cultists alone and lynch an unconfirmed role like Glyphz, Johnhughtom, or Warman.

[Riedquat]

pff... if Ishtar can't recruit how do you explain Andres, MRD and classical claims? All were recruited by her...
All this is utterly confusing! And the mythology thing just blew up my fragile mind, I liked more when TLD was the most suspicious person around...

[TheLastDays]

The thing is, that it's possible that Chaotix is not the Mafia. It's not proven that he's the Mafia. It is perfectly possible that your little cult has been infiltrated by whoever is the last Mafia standing.

Because, IF what you say is true, what is this cult other than a forced pro-town network with a little side objective of "mating" their leader with Mayniu? Then, IF that's the case, what does our host love to do? Confuse pro-town networks. So, why in the world do you see the following as conclusive evidence: 1) We were able to recruit one pro-town role. 2) We can obviously recruit every pro-town role! - That's simply not enough evidence to declare Chaotix scum, simply because he wasn't recruitable.

Now here are a few other things, that we have no conclusive evidence for:

1) The cult's goal is the same as the town's goal, only the cult leader has to "sleep" with Angra Mayniu.

Well, you failed to provide reasnoning why Ishtar would need a recruiting ability for that. That's a simple lover role, nothing else. Why recruit massive numbers of townies? What does Ishtar need them for?

2) Angra Mayniu is a role in this game.

Now, that's your goal, right? You have to find him. Haven't found him yet, I suppose. Where's that power role? The writeups don't point to that at all. The role of the "lynchmaster" in Netherworld 1 + 2 was never a role in the game itself. Also, if you are so nice to offer the town help in defeating Chaotix, who is, or so you claim, the remaining Mafia, why have you not asked for a favor in return? Like, i.e., a personal reveal of Angra Mainyu to one of your esteemed cultlings? Because you aren't really looking for Angra Mainyu, are you?

3) You control the town's vote.

MRD himself doubted, in hs private conversation with me, that you have as many members as you claim to have. Also, if it's true, why do we even have this discussion? Why ask the town for their votes when you can simply go through them and lynch whomever you will?

Ladies and Gentlemen, the cult has been lying to the town all along. Beskar, if you haven't been recruited, only contacted, open your eyes and realise the truth.

It's very simple actually, I don't believe statement 1) and 2) and we can put statement 3) to a test. I believe the cult leader is johnhughthom. Everyone who is still in control of their own vote, vote JHT today and we'll see where it gets us! If he isn't the cult leader, the chance that he's Hades is as high as with anyone else. If he is the cult leader, we should have one problem less and face 2-3 more days to eliminate Hades!

[Death is yonder]

That's simply not enough evidence to declare Chaotix scum, simply because he wasn't recruitable.

There is never ever enough evidence in a mafia game, unless a conclusive and solid detective result presents itself. Always present is that element where what pieces that are available add up so coincidentally that it cannot be ignored.

Interestingly, it is probably easier to accumulate a higher quality of information pointing towards Chaotix being scum versus jht being Hades although that's from a purely speculative point of view.

In any case, these are questions you should be asking people who can provide information.

It is perfectly possible that your little cult has been infiltrated by whoever is the last Mafia standing.

If one were to follow this line of inquiry from a purely mechanics perspective, this would suggest that:
a) Mafia are recruitable for some odd reason

And then you must ask yourself, to what end will this allow? Wouldn't infiltrating lets say, Yaro's pro-town network mess around with the town more and be definitely more productive?

Naturally some other options could be present, but you did say infiltrated, meaning sneakily masquerading as someone else in an otherwise un-compromised scenario.

[TheLastDays]

I am simply saying that I don't think khaan has given the cult the ability to clearly identify scum by making Mafia the only roles not recruitable. ESPECIALLY if the cult is town aligned, which I don't believe to be the case.

Please, answer my questions:

If your goal is to mate Ishtar with Mayniu, why do you have the ability to recruit?
If you are looking for Mayniu, why aren't you looking for Mayniu?
If you control the voting, why do we have this discussion? Why did you feel the need to contact Beskar and gain the town's trust to vote along with you? Everyone, please put this to a test. Vote JHT if you are in control of your own vote!

[Riedquat]

I am simply saying that I don't think khaan has given the cult the ability to clearly identify scum by making Mafia the only roles not recruitable. ESPECIALLY if the cult is town aligned, which I don't believe to be the case.

Please, answer my questions:

If your goal is to mate Ishtar with Mayniu, why do you have the ability to recruit?
If you are looking for Mayniu, why aren't you looking for Mayniu?
If you control the voting, why do we have this discussion? Why did you feel the need to contact Beskar and gain the town's trust to vote along with you? Everyone, please put this to a test. Vote JHT if you are in control of your own vote!

Don't you feel you are answering the same questions you are formulating TLD? If the cult isn't town aligned why contact Beskar? Why the discussion? Voting for somebody else than Chaotix with the current info is like shooting on our own feet IMHO...
Why have you been killed? Why Chaotix have not been attacked at all?

[TheLastDays]

No, that does not answer any of my questions. The cult needs the town's votes, that's why they contacted Beskar. It's as simple as that. Put it to a test. Vote JHT and see what happens. If the cult controls the voting, as they have claimed, you shouldn't be able to break their voting bloc anyway and it won't matter. If they do not control the voting, that's the reason they contacted Beskar. They need your vote to accomplish whatever goal they might have and IT IS NOT WHAT THEY SAY IT IS!

A role that has to find another character and use an ability on them is a lover role, not a cult recruiter. If said role has the ability to recruit, their goal is something different and it is not town aligned. You don't need to recruit townies to a town aligned cult. THEY ARE already townies!

[TheLastDays]

There is never ever enough evidence in a mafia game, unless a conclusive and solid detective result presents itself. Always present is that element where what pieces that are available add up so coincidentally that it cannot be ignored.

Interestingly, it is probably easier to accumulate a higher quality of information pointing towards Chaotix being scum versus jht being Hades although that's from a purely speculative point of view.

In any case, these are questions you should be asking people who can provide information.



If one were to follow this line of inquiry from a purely mechanics perspective, this would suggest that:
a) Mafia are recruitable for some odd reason

And then you must ask yourself, to what end will this allow? Wouldn't infiltrating lets say, Yaro's pro-town network mess around with the town more and be definitely more productive?

Naturally some other options could be present, but you did say infiltrated, meaning sneakily masquerading as someone else in an otherwise un-compromised scenario.

Also, look at this answer, by our little new cult friend. He avoids tackling the real questions and gives some generic answers to irrelevant points. Scummy.

[Beskar]

If your goal is to mate Ishtar with Mayniu, why do you have the ability to recruit?

I think I know why... You remember the phase 3, what did Ishtar do? She slept with (What was claimed to be Andres later) in the write-up. She is a Goddess of Love. Also from my cult contact, Ishtar claims she never knew she was a 'cult recruiter'. This sort of suggests the ability didn't work as they expected and a side-effect of simply with townies is that they want to join her cause as they are besotted with her beauty or similar.

Ishtar simply took the opportunity of this to start mass recruiting, especially helpful since they found out about Renata early game, a sort of loose investigation / gain assistant ability.

If you are looking for Mayniu, why aren't you looking for Mayniu?

They have been, but haven't found him yet.

[Beskar]

Death is Yonder, nice of you to support my case anyway, you must think there is merit in it !

[TheLastDays]

This makes no sense, Beskar. I don't buy it and probably cult members of Ishtar have been lied to by Ishtar themselves. I'm not asking why she would have that ability mathologywise but why she would need it gameplaywise. khaan will not assing that character a useless ability, especially he won't give a town aligned lover role the ability to effectively discover Mafia by trying to recruit them, that would be pretty overpowered.

They could have asked for a reveal from Mayniu in exchange for their help towards the town. But they have not and I think it's because Mayniu is not a player role and their whole claim is a lie.

Again, put it to a test. Vote JHT. If they cannot control enough votes to lynch whoever they want they have lied to us already. This cult is not town-aligned, it makes no sense this way.

[TheLastDays]

Death is Yonder, nice of you to support my case anyway, you must think there is merit in it !

DiY is obviously a cultist who has been sent out to make sure what they want you to do is done.

[Chaotix]

Beskar, you're voting for me and you want me to die, and at the same time you want me to give you my list of roleblocked townies?

That is some prime steak right there.

You guys are all getting hung up on this stupid recruitment thing and you're not looking at the real issues. Who cares that classical_hero is a god and he was recruited, and I am a god and I wasn't recruited? We never established in stone that godhood was what determined recruitability, we only theorized that much. In reality, khaan probably designed some specific roles to be convertible and others to not be, regardless of what kind of creature they were.

You know why I'm not a cultist right now? Because Janus doesn't give a crap about women, he only cares about work. He is the epitome of jobs before hoes.

Right now, you're trying to lynch the only power role that is not a cultist. Does that really seem like a good idea to you? You think the cult is just going to convert you all and make one big, happy family? You try that, and you doom every dead townie to lose, as well as every one of you that they can't/don't have time to convert.

So are you going to metagame your way to victory and let the cult walk all over you, or are you going to play by what your townie role says you have to do and lynch these idiots before they become unstoppable? If you just had to lynch me because of a pure suspicion like we were going to do with TLD, that would be acceptable to me. But the fact is that if you lynch me today, then I lose and you have a shot at winning, even though we're both town-aligned. And that pisses me off.

If you let the cult take over, then you don't deserve to win this game. That's my opinion, I've said my piece. You wanna lynch me for BS, go right ahead. Otherwise, vote with me so we can play the game and not the metagame.

[Beskar]

I want the mafia dead and I believe you are that mafia, hence my vote. Nothing really more to it then that.

[TheLastDays]

Your evidence for believing that Chaotix is scum comes from the cult and the cult is probably lying AND could be wrong too.

The cult is not town aligned and it is still defeatable, because otherwise they would have never approached the town, begging for your votes. But you decide to go the easy route, aligning yourself with the cult without being in the cult, hoping for them to recruit you before all this is over.

I say, go for both. Defeath the Mafia and the cult, it's the only way for an honest townie.

[Earthling]

Chaotix is not scum and it's a fact that some town/non-mafia gods cannot be recruited by the cult. As the cult claimed Death is Yonder was one of them, don't listen to him, doubly so when I can tell you that what he says is not true.

It's far more likely that Hades was recruitable and really already recruited by the cult.

Again, anyone who takes a moment to think will realize that it's completely senseless that a cult leader who is not anti-town gets the equivalent of an automatic scan against the scum.

Nobody else had a truescan ability, rather explicitly the town only had one activity scanner and that's it.

a lynch of jht is certainly ok as he is likely cultist, though Warman is too by the voting record and he's a more likely Hades, but at this point anything else is a good attempt if townies will actually vote.

Don't lynch Chaotix, it's the worst move the town can make.

[Earthling]

Wouldn't infiltrating lets say, Yaro's pro-town network mess around with the town more and be definitely more productive?

You can't just infiltrate a pro-town network that is based on players talking. The host can't force players to send PMs to other players or compromise their login accounts, maybe you could secretly forward any quicktopic players create to the mafia team but no host ever does that and that wouldn't even be relevant here.

Stop being a lying scumbag.

[TheLastDays]

Listen, I'm not even saying Chaotix is not Hades. It's possible but at the moment all the evidence we have is weak AND comes from the cult which is probably lying to us, because their agenda cannot be pro-town with what they have provided so far. The cult is the bigger problem as of now, they have come forth to put this game away this round and you all are helping them sail away with the win.

Again, I urge y'all to lynch JHT if your vote is still your vote and put the word of the cult to the test. Don't swallow blindly what they are feeding you or the town has already lost.

[Earthling]

It's possible but at the moment all the evidence we have is weak

No, it's really not possible. If you must go with saying Chaotix is scum there are some things that are possible but insanely crazy, like that Chaotix is a second mafia and glyphz was Hades all along and he'd been covering for him with a fake ability.

He's not Hades and he's really not scum at all is the real answer. And of course, even if townies believed he was scum, that would mean he would
a) kill a cultist at night, and
b) the town could lynch him tomorrow or the next day

lynching at the cult, either for the cult leader or Hades as part of the cult, not to mention seeing what vots the cult really has, is the only reasonable choice right now.

[Choxorn]

I never thought I'd say this, but Earthling and TLD are completely right, and you should listen to them, and you should be lynching john now.

[TheLastDays]

lynching at the cult, either for the cult leader or Hades as part of the cult, not to mention seeing what vots the cult really has, is the only reasonable choice right now.

I can't agree with everything you say but this statement is true. I fear the town has made their choice though and this game will not break the Netherworld spell or the Anniversary spell.

[seireikhaan]

Just a reminder, a bit under five hours left.

[glyphz]

Not too high on lynching Chaotix, at least just yet, even if I'm suspicious of why he remains alive. Perhaps I'm holding on hope that he gets to block Hades this night, thus lynching him right now feels like shooting self on the foot.

Personally, I'd go for either Warman, jht, or Riedquat
Anyways Vote: johnhughthom, even if things look grim for Chaotix

[Captain Blackadder]

Vote: Chaotix

[TheLastDays]

Vote: Chaotix

Scumfest.

[seireikhaan]

Chaotix 7 (Beskar, Johnhughthom, Warman, Riedquat, Major Robert Dump, Classical Hero, Captain Blackadder)
Johnhughthom 2 (Chaotix, Glyphz)

Not Voting 1 (dcmort)


Writeup in progress.