why did the west commit to multiculturalism?

[Fragony]

If you talk with a guy from the street about fear of multiculturalism. The thing you get is that he/she is afraid that his/hers own culture might change towards direction he/she does not want it to go, because of immigrant influence, aka they do not want to be under sharia law in Finland for example. So in the end is opinion concerning multiculturalism even about multiculturalism in the end? Or just more about fear in general?

Thing is, they are right. Multiculturalism is implementing islam, nobody is asking for it. The islam seems to be the greatest achievemenr to be won in the multiculture game

[Kagemusha]

Who says that turning into islam is something to be desired about? I am placing the weight to the word "who".

[gaelic cowboy]

there is something up here with continual arguement that Multicultism is some force behind immigration, surely the reason Europe has lots of muslim immigrants is because all the countires bordering Europe that send immigrants are Muslim.

The problem with the Multicultist idea that Frag has is surely after the people got here, when they start dismantling norms and rules to satisfy some airy fairy ethic.

[Fragony]

Who says that turning into islam is something to be desired about? I am placing the weight to the word "who".

The multicultural left. The islam is nothing but a trophy. The rest of us are forced to lovingly caress a poisinous snake (political islam) so they get to feel good about themselves

' The problem with the Multicultist idea that Frag has is surely afterthe people got here, when they start dismantling norms and rules to satisfy some airy fairy ethic. '

yes

[Kagemusha]

The multicultural left. The islam is nothing but a trophy. The rest of us are forced to lovingly caress a poisinous snake (political islam) so they get to feel good about themselves

' The problem with the Multicultist idea that Frag has is surely afterthe people got here, when they start dismantling norms and rules to satisfy some airy fairy ethic. '

yes

So it is the political left that wants to convert everyone to Islam? So are they Islamist in disguise?

[Adrian II]

surely the reason Europe has lots of muslim immigrants [...]

It's hasn't. That's why this whole debate is absurd. About 3% of the population of the European Union are muslims. This percentage has been stable for years and is expected to go down since muslims are gradually adopting European birthrates. Many of those listed as muslims are not immigrants. Bulgaria for instance has 13% muslims, most of who were there since the Ottoman days. Many others are not observant, even though they are registered as muslims. In France for instance only half of immigrants from muslim countries are observant.

Just a few facts. I thought they couldn't hurt.

AII

[Fragony]

So it is the political left that wants to convert everyone to Islam? So are they Islamist in disguise?

Nah, it just doesn't work all that well, so concession after concession after concession, multiculture can't fail after all. It's a process of accumulation, small things that go unnoticed untill you add things up

[gaelic cowboy]

It's hasn't. That's why this whole debate is absurd. About 3% of the population of the European Union are muslims. This percentage has been stable for years and is expected to go down since muslims are gradually adopting European birthrates. Many of those listed as muslims are not immigrants. Bulgaria for instance has 13% muslims, most of who were there since the Ottoman days. Many others are not observant, even though they are registered as muslims. In France for instance only half of immigrants from muslim countries are observant.

Just a few facts. I thought they couldn't hurt.

AII

I was talking about the fact most of the acual people who actually immigrate here year on year are muslim by default not by some leftist design.

[Kagemusha]

Nah, it just doesn't work all that well, so concession after concession after concession, multiculture can't fail after all. It's a process of accumulation, small things that go unnoticed untill you add things up

So, to you the gist of things is that you feel that the political left is being irresponsible and reckless, because they want to be right in their views about multiculturalism? No matter what the consequences are?

[Fragony]

So, to you the gist of things is that you feel that the political left is being irresponsible and reckless, because they want to be right in their views about multiculturalism? No matter what the consequences are?

Sums it up

[Papewaio]

I was agreeing with pape minus the aforementioned caveat. I peruse existing threads for interesting ideas that I either agree with or disagree with. I honestly like sidetracks within a thread to a point

Not really a side track. Pointing out what is considered a cultural norm. I do wonder how we would feel seeing that same privilege extended to Mufti's.

People have a story, a need to vent. If it wasn't a priest it may have been someone else. Talking to anyone else would shine the light on a
crime and open up paths to investigation. The difference with a defense lawyer is that we operate on a dueling mechanism in law.

(Above was on a phone, below is without spell check).

My own caveat which is more off track (one upmanship :) ):
I actually think 90% of what confession is, is a great thing. In fact it might be a better option then prison. It is part of the cup of tea and talk therapy ideas that might ultimately be better then mandatory sentences for minor crimes. I think it is better to have professional lawyers, judges and carers (Priests, Doctors, Nurses) to be able to implement solutions based on their professional judgement.

[Shibumi]

Strictly from my perspective.

What Sweden has gained from multiculturalism:
- Richer food culture.
- More understanding of other nations.
- People who work harder for less.

What Sweden has lost:
- We now have ghettos.
- The use of derogatory names for girls are being common.
- The sense of "The big home", we used to pay high taxes to support our less fortunate citizens (and that was ok), now we find ourselves paying even higher taxes for originally somewhereelses citizens (and that is not ok). Can be seen in the fact that we used to be socialist when we were only Swedes with minor immigration, whereas we have now moved to a more cold society with colder laws and general structures in society at large.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Strictly from my perspective.

What Sweden has gained from multiculturalism:
- Richer food culture.
- More understanding of other nations.
- People who work harder for less.

What Sweden has lost:
- We now have ghettos.
- The use of derogatory names for girls are being common.
- The sense of "The big home", we used to pay high taxes to support our less fortunate citizens (and that was ok), now we find ourselves paying even higher taxes for originally somewhereelses citizens (and that is not ok). Can be seen in the fact that we used to be socialist when we were only Swedes with minor immigration, whereas we have now moved to a more cold society with colder laws and general structures in society at large.

This sounds normal, really, the Rich benefit (foriegn cooks, cheap labour) while the poor and less-than-wealthy are left to pick up the tab. I have always said Scandanavia did well socially because of homogenity. The attrocities in Norway, while not committed by an immigrant, are still linked to immigration.

That realisation has not, however, pointed me towards a solution.

[Fragony]

Strictly from my perspective.

What Sweden has gained from multiculturalism:
- Richer food culture.
- More understanding of other nations.
- People who work harder for less.

What Sweden has lost:
- We now have ghettos.
- The use of derogatory names for girls are being common.
- The sense of "The big home", we used to pay high taxes to support our less fortunate citizens (and that was ok), now we find ourselves paying even higher taxes for originally somewhereelses citizens (and that is not ok). Can be seen in the fact that we used to be socialist when we were only Swedes with minor immigration, whereas we have now moved to a more cold society with colder laws and general structures in society at large.

Sweden has to be the example of multiculturalists putting their society to the test, a country governed by a collective narcistic personality disorder

[Furunculus]

This sounds normal, really, the Rich benefit (foriegn cooks, cheap labour) while the poor and less-than-wealthy are left to pick up the tab. I have always said Scandanavia did well socially because of homogenity. The attrocities in Norway, while not committed by an immigrant, are still linked to immigration.

That realisation has not, however, pointed me towards a solution.

agreed, a truly happy and undiluted solcial democracy really only works with a culturally homogeneous population, as only a broad and deep sense of 'family' will encourage people to reach into their pockets for others benefit time after time.

[Papewaio]

So Australia which is a culturally hetrogenous population is not a happy social democracy?

Now these are only sourced from one think tank, so automatically the sample population is not great. But as these were at the top of the google search I'm sure you can find something to counter it if your premise is correct.

From the happiest countries in the world 2010:
1. Norway
2. Denmark
3. Finland
4. Australia
5. New Zealand

The World’s Most Liveable Cities Top 10 List 2011:
1 Vancouver, Canada
2 Melbourne, Australia
3 Vienna, Austria
4 Toronto, Canada
5 Calgary, Canada
6 Helsinki, Finland
7 Sydney, Australia
8 (equal) Perth, Australia
9 (equal) Adelaide, Australia
10 Auckland, New Zealand

But it kind of torpedoes the idea that one needs to have a culturally homogenous population to be happy as that is not the key.

I don't see the poor as being worse off for immigration. The uber-rich can afford a butler, its the middle class and poor who are more likely to require the help of a lower wage earner. Take call centres in Australia, they are about as diverse a group of people possible. Call centres are run by a much higher percentage of immigrants and second generation then the rest of Australia. The low cost solutions that are call centres are catering more for the middle and poor segment of the population.

[Strike For The South]

The more and more this thread goes on, the more and more it becomes painfully clear multicultralism is a buzzword for BROWN PEOPLE

Not that it is very surprising, mind you

[Fragony]

The more and more this thread goes on, the more and more it becomes painfully clear multicultralism is a buzzword for BROWN PEOPLE

Not that it is very surprising, mind you

Nope, it's not about brown people, nor hindu's, nor asians. Only about leftist islamphilae

[Strike For The South]

Nope, it's not about brown people, nor hindu's, nor asians. Only about leftist islamphilae

Considering most of the tenats of "leftism" are diametrically opposed to the Sharia strawmen you are setting up, I fail to follow

Have you ever thought this conspiracy may be in your head?

[Centurion1]

[QUOTE]

So Australia which is a culturally hetrogenous population is not a happy social democracy?

Now these are only sourced from one think tank, so automatically the sample population is not great. But as these were at the top of the google search I'm sure you can find something to counter it if your premise is correct.

From the happiest countries in the world 2010:
1. Norway
2. Denmark
3. Finland
4. Australia
5. New Zealand

The World’s Most Liveable Cities Top 10 List 2011:
1 Vancouver, Canada
2 Melbourne, Australia
3 Vienna, Austria
4 Toronto, Canada
5 Calgary, Canada
6 Helsinki, Finland
7 Sydney, Australia
8 (equal) Perth, Australia
9 (equal) Adelaide, Australia
10 Auckland, New Zealand

All of those statistics are highly subjective and sort of pointless. Not to mention if you really want to get into it I saw about four different rankings for happiest countries online.

But sure we will go with yours if it makes you happy.

1. Homogeneous culturally
2. Homogeneous culturally
3. Homogeneous culturally
4. heterogeneous you say. 92% of the country is made up of those of European descent with a 8-9% Asian population. I couldn't find how much of the European population is foreign born or not so it would be nice if you could tell me that. I assume the majority hail from the British Isles.
5. New Zealand appears to be about 70% European with 15% each in Maori and Asian so a clear majority segment of the population but pretty Heterogeneous.

Also to note how ridiculous I think these statistics are I saw on one ranking for 2010 that Guatemala were ranked at number 9. The Us may not be as happy but I think I know which one I would choose.

The more and more this thread goes on, the more and more it becomes painfully clear multicultralism is a buzzword for BROWN PEOPLE

Not that it is very surprising, mind you

ummmm I would disagree. Western Europe has quite a few issues with immigrants from Eastern Europe and the Balkans as well I believe.

I don't consider the US a multicultural society. We assimilated immigrants heavily but we also absorbed some old country practices into the culture. We are sort of a mix match. At least we were now it is more assimilate or leave.

[Fragony]

Considering most of the tenats of "leftism" are diametrically opposed to the Sharia strawmen you are setting up, I fail to follow

That is why the leftist islamphilae is so rediculous. Say something bad about christianity and they will cheer, say anything bad about the islam and they will claw out your eyes. It isn't even a double standard, it's a blind spot

[Strike For The South]

[QUOTE=Centurion1;2053350633]

ummmm I would disagree. Western Europe has quite a few issues with immigrants from Eastern Europe and the Balkans as well I believe.

In England the Polish's biggest problem is what calender they will be put on, I ain't buying it

I don't consider the US a multicultural society. We assimilated immigrants heavily but we also absorbed some old country practices into the culture. We are sort of a mix match. At least we were now it is more assimilate or leave.

All the little Italys, Chinatowns, Cinco de Mayos, and Oktoberfest beg to differ. America has been blugeoned with immigrants since the begininng and yet somehow we've manged to stay afloat. You can't define a singular American culture, well maybe consumerism and obesity.

I want an actual definintion of what multicultralism is and when does a nation state jump the shark. Until then I see nothing but furrowed brows about those scary scary brown people and there scary scary scary religon

[Fragony]

In the US multiculture was never the goal, there is no rationality behind multiculturalism because it's a religion, a religion that accepts zero dissent

http://www.google.nl/url?sa=t&source...7xjB-P1QRzz4sg

' I remember coming away from some discussions with the clear sense that the policy was intended – even if this wasn't its main purpose – to rub the Right's nose in diversity and render their arguments out of date."

ES MUSS SEIN

[Centurion1]

[QUOTE=Strike For The South;2053350637]

In England the Polish's biggest problem is what calender they will be put on, I ain't buying it




All the little Italys, Chinatowns, Cinco de Mayos, and Oktoberfest beg to differ. America has been blugeoned with immigrants since the begininng and yet somehow we've manged to stay afloat. You can't define a singular American culture, well maybe consumerism and obesity.

I want an actual definintion of what multicultralism is and when does a nation state jump the shark. Until then I see nothing but furrowed brows about those scary scary brown people and there scary scary scary religon

What is confusing about largely assimilate but adopt some old country practices? How is repeating what I say make me wrong precisely?

[Strike For The South]

[QUOTE=Centurion1;2053350644]

What is confusing about largely assimilate but adopt some old country practices? How is repeating what I say make me wrong precisely?

And what do you think they are doing in these other places? You contradict yourself.

People have been migrating forever, and nation states have never been close to mono cultural, if one can even begin to attempent to define what that is. The US is a multicultural society based on the definition of "multicultural" We seem to be doing just fine.

The problem in Europe is a boogeymen meant to scare children and in some cases dismantle the social saftey net that these countries worked so hard for Shibumis post is tantamount to that

[Fragony]

'People have been migrating forever, and nation states have never been close to mono cultural, if one can even begin to attempent to define what that is. The US is a multicultural society based on the definition of "multicultural" We seem to be doing just fine.'

Because the USA doesn't try to make a point about it. In Europe for the left multiculture is the actual goal, it's their ideoligy. And they accept no critism whatsoever, it's what happens when you let intellectuals play with the buttons, they want to prove their theory. In real life they turn into the evil stepmother that only cares about what the neighbours think

[Adrian II]

I want an actual definintion of what multicultralism is and when does a nation state jump the shark. Until then I see nothing but furrowed brows about those scary scary brown people and there scary scary scary religon

Forget about the brown people. That was 25 years ago. Back then, our resident fascists told us we would be 'swamped' by blacks from Africa and elsewhere. These days the browns are getting a break, it's all about islam. I reckon East Europeans are next, but it'll take another decade for that one to take hold.

By the way it's funny how the US is seen as monocultural by people who've never been there. Must have something to do with your media and the image they project.

AII

[Fragony]

Forget about the brown people. That was 25 years ago. Back then, our resident fascists told us we would be 'swamped' by blacks from Africa and elsewhere. These days the browns are getting a break, it's all about islam. I reckon East Europeans are next, but it'll take another decade for that one to take hold.

It's an easy way out that people complained about blacks 25 years ago. What is true now was true then, crime rised drastically, no? With muslims it is true as well. And it will also be true with eastern europeans. Multiculture is a flawed concept that will never be proven right. Things are fine in our multi-ethnic society however, without the patronising of decency-salesmen we do just fine.

That is the evil stepmother, multiculturelalism. The multi-ethnic society has problems, but the evil stepmother only cares about what the neighbours think. She's a fundamentalist

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

In England the Polish's biggest problem is what calender they will be put on, I ain't buying it

So you're telling us that being objectified as a nation of breasts isn't a problem?

Eastern Europeans already get a rough time in Britain, but then so do the French.

It's all about the "Other" and has nothing to do with skin colour. I think you are imposing your local American prejudices onto Europe.

[Adrian II]

It's an easy way out that people complained about blacks 25 years ago. What is true now was true then, crime rised drastically, no?

No. And it's going down these days as well. You're a rebel without a clue, Fragony.

AII