Who was innocent

[Fragony]

No, he is a threat to Norway. The old imbecile even threated a Norwegian minister, a representative of the country that kept him safe for 14 years, with death.

Don't send him to Iraq or the US where they will torture him and use his 'confessions' to harm even more innocents. Send him to jail.

AII

I don't understand it all that much either, Stocholm by proxy or something like that. A lot of western confusion in any case, glad you are immune for that, I'd almost vote on you.

I still thing he should just be dumped in Iraq, or with his butt painted red with Bakito

[Adrian II]

A lot of western confusion in any case, glad you are immune for that, I'd almost vote on you.

Mensch! Don't vote for a money-grubbing pinko centralist Francophile.

Seriously, I have always been critical of western capitals that gave islamists too much money, respectability and logistic leeway. 'Londonistan' for instance has become a festering sore. The US has discovered that financing and arming Quran-toting 'freedom fighters' wasn't such a good idea. The Dutch have found out that their policy of scientific openness helped Pakistan develop its nuclear bomb.

Such developments have harmed western interests as well as the standing of millions of hard-working, decent, law-abiding, hospitable and friendly muslims on western soil.

So maybe it's time for a rethink eh?

AII

[Fisherking]

As to the original topic of this discussion;

What is so amazing about all this?

People have indoctrinated youth since mankind began.

When we agree with it we call it in favorable terms and when we disagree we call it atrocious behavior.

Normally parents or society at large teach children how to view the world. If you pass them over to political organizations you should not be surprised that they may instill a narrower view based on their own beliefs to those in their charge.

[HoreTore]

Yes, Utøya is a place of indoctranation, because they hold debates there. Because, you know, in a debate you only ever get one argument.

No, wait?

A youth party is a political party. What happens at their events is political stuff. The ones attending are politicans, the only remarkable thing is that they are all in their late teens/twenties. A hefty percentage of them are already voted into office, most locally, but a few occupy some of the 169 seats of parliament.

They're not being indoctrinated, if anything they would be the ones who would indoctrinate others.

And for the record, I was there in 2008. As a communist spy, of course....

Edit: crank out google translate, and read about the evil indoctrination the conservative youth party is planning to do:

http://ungehoyre.no/organisasjonen/skolering.html

[Adrian II]

Indoctrination usually means that people are force-fed certain views or an entire lifestyle, to the exclusion of everything else. No other sources of information are allowed, and those protesting the indoctrination are isolated and punished. That's what happened in the Hitler Jugend. There is not even a semblance of a parallel to Utoya. Those who think otherwise are retards, hysterics or Glenn Beck.

AII

[Tellos Athenaios]

@Fragony: in case you missed it, according to HoreTore they did not have a “break the blockade” game.

EDIT: Btw, if I understand this correctly, similar camps are held by pretty much any mainstream political party in the Neds as well once there is an active “youth” part anyway. 'Course PVV being what it is might prefer not to host such events.

[HoreTore]

@Fragony: in case you missed it, according to HoreTore they did not have a “break the blockade” game.

EDIT: Btw, if I understand this correctly, similar camps are held by pretty much any mainstream political party in the Neds as well once there is an active “youth” part anyway. 'Course PVV being what it is might prefer not to host such events.

Engaging the young population in the democratic process is the primary task of any political party.

In Norway, this is in large part outsourced to the youth parties, and as such the youth parties are a vital part of our democracy.

[Subotan]

The topic at hand is based on two distinct misunderstandings that serve as the premise to a frankly odious argument.

To those who are arguing it is indoctrination; it isn't. Indoctrination has to be done involuntarily, in that no choice is presented to the subject of the indoctrination to accept or refuse it. The Utøya event was an event for members of the Labour Party, who are members of their own free will, that they could choose to go to. Since there is no such thing as voluntary indoctrination, the Utøya event can't have been indoctrination.

Also, as HoreTore has made clear; this was a Youth Camp insofar as it was open to members of the party who were not middle-aged or over. Lots of parties have similar affiliated organisations; e.g. I'm a member of the Youth Wing of the British Labour Party, as are all members up to the age of 27.

With those two assumptions out of the way, I'm going to throw down the gauntlet to Fragony, skullhead etc. By framing the issue like this, by presenting the event as something which should never have happened, you are trying to shift the blame for the murders away from the frothing, racist and radical European far-right, who have for years tried to legitimise the discourse they engage in, to the victims of this terrible tragedy.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Engaging the young population in the democratic process is the primary task of any political party.

In Norway, this is in large part outsourced to the youth parties, and as such the youth parties are a vital part of our democracy.

I picked this quote to jump in because it's typically Scandanavian in many ways, mostly in that it does not hold up for the rest of the world.

The primary purpose of a political party is for like minded politicians to group together in a country's legislature in order to advance a common political program. In forming a political part you are, as agroup, trying to articulate a coherent political vision which both appeals to and benefits the electorate, or at least a portion of it. Engaging the young is about the sustainability of a political project, it is a part of long term stategy, not immediate political objectives.

Now, onto the camps:

Creepy? Not really, when you examine them. Weird? A bit, yes.

This is obviously a Norwegian thing, but it looks to me like "religion", the socialisation of young people into a particular mindset in the same way that Evangelical groups in the UK do outreach. It's actually very similar, camps, songs, debates and talks from eminent guest speakers.

This chimes with my impression of the reaction from Norwegians to the attack, the two words that came up the most were "love" and "forgiveness". The pitch was entirely Christian, but I know Norway is a very secular country with quite low levels of observance, notwithstanding the automatic flocking to the Cathedral in Oslo as a focal point for mourning.

My tentative conclusion is that Norwegians have replaced religion with secular politics in what almost looks like a "bait and switch", which explains why Norway lacks the social vacume of, say, Britain, and why their political engagement is so energetic.

[Fragony]

@Fragony: in case you missed it, according to HoreTore they did not have a ?break the blockade? game.

EDIT: Btw, if I understand this correctly, similar camps are held by pretty much any mainstream political party in the Neds as well once there is an active ?youth? part anyway. 'Course PVV being what it is might prefer not to host such events.

And Norway doesn't outright ban certain university's because they are Israeli

[Skullheadhq]

'Course PVV being what it is might prefer not to host such events.

What kind of activities would they have on a PVV-camp if it existed?

[Banquo's Ghost]

I would appreciate it if the use of the word "retard" and its variants was dropped forthwith. It is an ugly and inappropriate word when applied to an opponent or their views.

This is a contentious discussion and will not be helped by personal attacks or lazy generalisations.

Thank you kindly.

[HoreTore]

What kind of activities would they have on a PVV-camp if it existed?

The same as any other youth camp:

Political debate and discussion on physical organization, ie stuff like "should we buy 100 posters for our funds or 1000 pins?"

Or in other words, practical politics.

[Tellos Athenaios]

What kind of activities would they have on a PVV-camp if it existed?

Not ones which involve actually having a say in party policy... that's for sure.

[Koga No Goshi]

What is this I don't even.

[Fragony]

What is this I don't even.

Well maybe quotations help 'I am a supporter of a one state solution, exclusively for the Palestians' Don't worry it wasn't me who said it, it's what they say there, what they cheered for.

[Fragony]

'So maybe it's time for a rethink eh?'

That would be lovely

'Yes, Utøya is a place of indoctranation, because they hold debates there. Because, you know, in a debate you only ever get one argument.'

If the organization organises a break the blockade game I'd say the debate was already kinda settled.

[Cute Wolf]

That's because political youth camps are by definition retarded. Why would kids have to organize politically and then go to an awkward, everyone-thinks-the-same camp? It just makes no sense.

they imitate muslim madrasah system *cough* emulate the muslims *cough*

but even with that, killing unarmed defenseless childs are by definition utter coward