Who was innocent

[HoreTore]

@Fragony: in case you missed it, according to HoreTore they did not have a “break the blockade” game.

EDIT: Btw, if I understand this correctly, similar camps are held by pretty much any mainstream political party in the Neds as well once there is an active “youth” part anyway. 'Course PVV being what it is might prefer not to host such events.

Engaging the young population in the democratic process is the primary task of any political party.

In Norway, this is in large part outsourced to the youth parties, and as such the youth parties are a vital part of our democracy.

[Fragony]

@Fragony: in case you missed it, according to HoreTore they did not have a ?break the blockade? game.

EDIT: Btw, if I understand this correctly, similar camps are held by pretty much any mainstream political party in the Neds as well once there is an active ?youth? part anyway. 'Course PVV being what it is might prefer not to host such events.

And Norway doesn't outright ban certain university's because they are Israeli

[Subotan]

The topic at hand is based on two distinct misunderstandings that serve as the premise to a frankly odious argument.

To those who are arguing it is indoctrination; it isn't. Indoctrination has to be done involuntarily, in that no choice is presented to the subject of the indoctrination to accept or refuse it. The Utøya event was an event for members of the Labour Party, who are members of their own free will, that they could choose to go to. Since there is no such thing as voluntary indoctrination, the Utøya event can't have been indoctrination.

Also, as HoreTore has made clear; this was a Youth Camp insofar as it was open to members of the party who were not middle-aged or over. Lots of parties have similar affiliated organisations; e.g. I'm a member of the Youth Wing of the British Labour Party, as are all members up to the age of 27.

With those two assumptions out of the way, I'm going to throw down the gauntlet to Fragony, skullhead etc. By framing the issue like this, by presenting the event as something which should never have happened, you are trying to shift the blame for the murders away from the frothing, racist and radical European far-right, who have for years tried to legitimise the discourse they engage in, to the victims of this terrible tragedy.

[Skullheadhq]

'Course PVV being what it is might prefer not to host such events.

What kind of activities would they have on a PVV-camp if it existed?

[Banquo's Ghost]

I would appreciate it if the use of the word "retard" and its variants was dropped forthwith. It is an ugly and inappropriate word when applied to an opponent or their views.

This is a contentious discussion and will not be helped by personal attacks or lazy generalisations.

Thank you kindly.

[HoreTore]

What kind of activities would they have on a PVV-camp if it existed?

The same as any other youth camp:

Political debate and discussion on physical organization, ie stuff like "should we buy 100 posters for our funds or 1000 pins?"

Or in other words, practical politics.

[Kralizec]

Oh the irony.

It would have been ironic if the perpetrator had been an islamic terrorist. Instead it was a white guy who believes that all leftists are anti-semites, Al-Quada sympathizers and Gutmenschen. Hate was certainly planted, but not by these youths. Your post is a case in point.

[Subotan]

The same as any other youth camp:

Political debate and discussion on physical organization, ie stuff like "should we buy 100 posters for our funds or 1000 pins?"

Or in other words, practical politics.

Precisely, tempted though I was to suggest goosestepping.

[HoreTore]

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4134/...45203a6e_z.jpg

This picture seems to be the source of the OP.

And it also explains the OP's massive and complete fail.


Those people are not AUF-campers - those are members of Sosialistisk Ungdom(socialist youth) - SU - which is the youth party of MY political party, Sosialistisk Venstreparty(socialist left party).

The right-wing blogosphere, determined to show the world that they have no brains, are saying that the picture is from Utøya.

It is not. It is a different party, different people, different political stance, different MO, and actually, its also a completly different location. That boat is not Sailing on Tyrifjorden, that looks more like the coast of southern/southwestern Norway. If I had to guess, I'd say Stavanger.

So in conclusion, this thread is a massive FAIL and should be forgotten.


Some more info on what Utøya is about for you all: http://mondoweiss.net/2011/07/regard...g-through.html

[Greyblades]

Uh... What the heck is the first post talking about? "brainwash children into sympathising with child-killers", who is? Is there an artical we're supposed to have read already?

[HoreTore]

Uh... What the heck is the first post talking about? "brainwash children into sympathising with child-killers", who is? Is there an artical we're supposed to have read already?

While one can never be completly sure, I believe the photo in my last post is the source, plus the spin of the right-wing blogosphere which the OP reads with a passion.

[Subotan]

So in conclusion, this thread is a massive FAIL and should be forgotten.

Oh of course, but I think that was evident from the start. The thread should not be forgotten though, and I for one intend to refer to it in future discussions on teh Mohammedans in Europe on this board.

[HoreTore]

Oh of course, but I think that was evident from the start. The thread should not be forgotten though, and I for one intend to refer to it in future discussions on teh Mohammedans in Europe on this board.

Well it would of course be amusing to hear how one can fail to spot the big flag in the centre of the pic with SU written on it...

[Fragony]

While one can never be completly sure, I believe the photo in my last post is the source, plus the spin of the right-wing blogosphere which the OP reads with a passion.

Nah, got it from de Volkskrant, who nobody would ever accuse of being anti-labout, quite the opposite

Have not seen that pic

[Adrian II]

I would appreciate it if the use of the word "retard" and its variants was dropped forthwith. It is an ugly and inappropriate word when applied to an opponent or their views.

This is a contentious discussion and will not be helped by personal attacks or lazy generalisations.

Thank you kindly.

Then what would be a fitting description of the likes of Glenn Beck? Because that's what I was talking about. I would never call a fellow orgah the name you quote.

AII

[Louis VI the Fat]

I would never call a fellow orgah the name you quote.

AII

Yes you would, you called me a retard just yesterday.

Typical drivel of a lily-livered lackey of rampant reactionary retardism.

AII

Teh ban! Teh ban!

[PanzerJaeger]

And for the last time, youth does NOT mean kids. Youth is defined as anyone up to the age of 33. Most youth party members are around 20, while most of the influential ones(eskil pedersen, røe isaksen, hovland, etc) are in their late twenties.

The primary role of youth parties is to campaign towards the 18-30 age group, host school debates and subsequent school elections.

How old were the youngest participants at the camp?

[Tellos Athenaios]

What kind of activities would they have on a PVV-camp if it existed?

Not ones which involve actually having a say in party policy... that's for sure.

[Tellos Athenaios]

The same as any other youth camp:

Political debate and discussion on physical organization, ie stuff like "should we buy 100 posters for our funds or 1000 pins?"

Or in other words, practical politics.

Not the PVV one. That was a trick question from Skullhead.

[Louis VI the Fat]

How old were the youngest participants at the camp?

Social democracy has been a dominant force in the Nordic countries for decades. Their societies, considered amongst the world's mpost advanced and civilised, the envy of the world, are to a very large extent the product of this dominance.

It is a bizarre fascist claim that these countries, these camps, are about ultra-leftwing indoctrination. What Europe needs is more Scandinavia, more democracy, more politically active youngsters, and less fascism. Not the other way round. Breivik, like 9-11, is an attack against western democracy, not a 'sad but secretly well deserved act they had coming'. Whatever one's objections about immigration in Europe, shooting a bunch of Norwegian youngsters isn't relevant. One would have to end up rooting for planes flown into London skyscrapers in retribution for the role rightwing demand for cheap labour and flexible borders has had on European immigration.

[Centurion1]

Social democracy has been a dominant force in the Nordic countries for decades. Their societies, considered amongst the world's mpost advanced and civilised, the envy of the world, are to a very large extent the product of this dominance.

It is a bizarre fascist claim that these countries, these camps, are about ultra-leftwing indoctrination. What Europe needs is more Scandinavia, more democracy, more politically active youngsters, and less fascism. Not the other way round. Breivik, like 9-11, is an attack against western democracy, not a 'sad but secretly well deserved act they had coming'. Whatever one's objections about immigration in Europe, shooting a bunch of Norwegian youngsters isn't relevant. One would have to end up rooting for planes flown into London skyscrapers in retribution for the role rightwing demand for cheap labour and flexible borders has had on European immigration.

Speak for yourself regarding enviousness over the Scandinavian model.

It has been debated to death that the Scandinavian countries forms of government are not applicable to many nations including the US. Do you really think France would succeed if they followed the governmental and economic models of Norway?

Advanced and Civilized by what standard. Obviously they are western and have modern societies but in what way are they more advanced than the rest of the world? At what technological or economic standard do these nations lead the rest of the world?

Enlighten me please.

[PanzerJaeger]

Social democracy has been a dominant force in the Nordic countries for decades. Their societies, considered amongst the world's mpost advanced and civilised, the envy of the world, are to a very large extent the product of this dominance.

It is a bizarre fascist claim that these countries, these camps, are about ultra-leftwing indoctrination. What Europe needs is more Scandinavia, more democracy, more politically active youngsters, and less fascism. Not the other way round. Breivik, like 9-11, is an attack against western democracy, not a 'sad but secretly well deserved act they had coming'. Whatever one's objections about immigration in Europe, shooting a bunch of Norwegian youngsters isn't relevant. One would have to end up rooting for planes flown into London skyscrapers in retribution for the role rightwing demand for cheap labour and flexible borders has had on European immigration.

Hmm.

Horetore seems to be playing this off as an apolitical gathering of young adults (and anyone who thinks differently is 'retarded'). I seem to remember there were participants significantly younger than 18 at the event. However, I'm not certain of that recollection. I'm just trying to establish the actual parameters of the discussion before I make a judgment on this political camp system.

I don't think anyone seriously believes that these children deserved to be killed. Completely separate from the killing, though, is the question of whether hosting children at political youth camp is a bit creepy. I'm not prepared to state an opinion on that without some more information.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Hmm.

Horetore seems to be playing this off as an apolitical gathering of young adults (and anyone who thinks differently is 'retarded'). I seem to remember there were participants significantly younger than 18 at the event. However, I'm not certain of that recollection. I'm just trying to establish the actual parameters of the discussion before I make a judgment on this political camp system.

I don't think anyone seriously believes that these children deserved to be killed. Completely separate from the killing, though, is the question of whether hosting children at political youth camp is a bit creepy. I'm not prepared to state an opinion on that without some more information.

It is a political camp, of a political party. So, yeah...
Even if most activities are not political, it is still a political camp with a political nature. As for creepy, meh, not to me. Young people are often very politically engaged. It takes little indoctrination to turn a nineteen year old into a political activist. I was a nineteen year old idealist once too, back in 1923 or some such long ago.

A political youth camp is not my cup of tea, but then, I also don't go to youth church, or enjoy uniforms, or any of the sort.


Centurion - personal preference then, I suppose. I, for one, have a long standing fascination with the north of Europe, which I consider the most civilised countries in the world.

[jirisys]

Centurion - personal preference then, I suppose. I, for one, have a long standing fascination with the north of Europe, which I consider the most civilised countries in the world.

Remember when they were considered savages and conquered the north?

~Jirisys ()

[Proletariat]

Then what would be a fitting description of the likes of Glenn Beck? Because that's what I was talking about. I would never call a fellow orgah the name you quote.

AII

Retard, like the word moron, once meant something else, a medical diagnosis. Times and words change and one day the mods will catch up, but by that time you'll be hearing people describe idiots as 'acting like a real beck'. I will never call another orgah a beck either.

[HoreTore]

How old were the youngest participants at the camp?

14.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Then what would be a fitting description of the likes of Glenn Beck? Because that's what I was talking about. I would never call a fellow orgah the name you quote.

AII

retard

noun
Pronunciation:/ˈriːtɑːd/
offensive
a person who has a mental disability (often used as a general term of abuse).

Mr Beck may have views with which you disagree, but the use of the word retard to describe him is incorrect and more importantly, offensive. The term does not foster respectful discussion and rapidly migrates from descriptions of public figures to personal attacks on members.

[Fragony]

It would have been ironic if the perpetrator had been an islamic terrorist. Instead it was a white guy who believes that all leftists are anti-semites, Al-Quada sympathizers and Gutmenschen. Hate was certainly planted, but not by these youths. Your post is a case in point.

If you absolutely adore people who feel the end justifies the means and die by the hands of someone who thinks likewise, that's ironic imho .

And from what I heard from the speech the PM gave ah well, it certainly wasn't about Norway's social-democracy and the amount of ribbons and flyers

[HoreTore]

You heard nothing from the PM, as he was supposed to speak on saturday. Needless to say, he didn't get a chance to do so.

[Fragony]

You heard nothing from the PM, as he was supposed to speak on saturday. Needless to say, he didn't get a chance to do so.

The ex-PM then. What difference does it make a major labour figure no. What does the middle-eastern conflict got to do with Norway? And ribbons? Norway has creepy elements imho