Who was innocent

[Kralizec]

Okay. So according to you, Norway's labour party endorses (or absolutely adores, whatever) terrorism against Israeli citizens, and because of that, it's ironic that a youth camp became a target of terrorism? Sources please, because I have a feeling that the premise is blatantly false.

[Adrian II]

I will never call another orgah a beck either.

[Fragony]

Okay. So according to you, Norway's labour party endorses (or absolutely adores, whatever) terrorism against Israeli citizens, and because of that, it's ironic that a youth camp became a target of terrorism? Sources please, because I have a feeling that the premise is blatantly false.

They even directly ban cooperation with Israeli professors

[HoreTore]

Okay. So according to you, Norway's labour party endorses (or absolutely adores, whatever) terrorism against Israeli citizens, and because of that, it's ironic that a youth camp became a target of terrorism? Sources please, because I have a feeling that the premise is blatantly false.

It is indeed an utter lie.

First of all, it was Gahr Støre, the foreign minister, who spoke on Thursday, the day of the mid-east debate. He repeated the mantra he has repeated since he assumed office:

Dialogue, dialogue, dialogue.

I don't think I have ever heard the man utter another word. How that can be interpreted as hate, however, is quite frankly beyond me.

As for Derschowitz being "denied" to speak at universities, the head of the unis in question have addressed that well enough. I'll give you the short version: he approached the legal faculty administration and asked if he could hold a lecture on Israel. The administration replied that they wanted a lecture on law, not Israel, seeing as how he is a professor of law and it being a legal faculty. He declined that, and the administration told him to contact the student organization if he wanted to hold a lecture that is strictly outside the curriculum. I can't remember atm if he did so, however.

Ah yes, what Jew-hating madness!!

[Kralizec]

Who did? The universities themselves, or the labour government?
All I can find with google is that Dershowitz was refused a lecture (Adrian referred to this earlier; he's not an Israeli citizen though) and a failed attempt at Trondheim's university to institute an academic boycot, the latter which was unanimously rejected.

EDIT: this was obviously in response to Frag.

[Fragony]

'First of all, it was Gahr Støre, the foreign minister, who spoke on Thursday, the day of the mid-east debate. He repeated the mantra he has repeated since he assumed office:Dialogue, dialogue, dialoguee'

Which has what to do with Norway's social democracy exactly?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Engaging the young population in the democratic process is the primary task of any political party.

In Norway, this is in large part outsourced to the youth parties, and as such the youth parties are a vital part of our democracy.

I picked this quote to jump in because it's typically Scandanavian in many ways, mostly in that it does not hold up for the rest of the world.

The primary purpose of a political party is for like minded politicians to group together in a country's legislature in order to advance a common political program. In forming a political part you are, as agroup, trying to articulate a coherent political vision which both appeals to and benefits the electorate, or at least a portion of it. Engaging the young is about the sustainability of a political project, it is a part of long term stategy, not immediate political objectives.

Now, onto the camps:

Creepy? Not really, when you examine them. Weird? A bit, yes.

This is obviously a Norwegian thing, but it looks to me like "religion", the socialisation of young people into a particular mindset in the same way that Evangelical groups in the UK do outreach. It's actually very similar, camps, songs, debates and talks from eminent guest speakers.

This chimes with my impression of the reaction from Norwegians to the attack, the two words that came up the most were "love" and "forgiveness". The pitch was entirely Christian, but I know Norway is a very secular country with quite low levels of observance, notwithstanding the automatic flocking to the Cathedral in Oslo as a focal point for mourning.

My tentative conclusion is that Norwegians have replaced religion with secular politics in what almost looks like a "bait and switch", which explains why Norway lacks the social vacume of, say, Britain, and why their political engagement is so energetic.

[HoreTore]

Love has been a mantra. I haven't heard forgiveness mentioned once.

Christian? I'd go for "hippie lovefest 2011".

As for the primary purpose of a democratic party:

It's the same in Britland too. I'll say it in a different way, maybe you'll get what I'm trying to say:

The primary purpose of any political party in a democratic state is to uphold democracy.



Quite obviously, if we lose a generation, then we will lose our democracy in 30 years or so. So, in order to save and continue our democratic society, we must engage each new generation in democracy. Thus, the primary purpose of our political parties is to engage the youth.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I picked this quote to jump in because it's typically Scandanavian in many ways, mostly in that it does not hold up for the rest of the world.

The primary purpose of a political party is for like minded politicians to group together in a country's legislature in order to advance a common political program. In forming a political part you are, as agroup, trying to articulate a coherent political vision which both appeals to and benefits the electorate, or at least a portion of it. Engaging the young is about the sustainability of a political project, it is a part of long term stategy, not immediate political objectives.

Now, onto the camps:

Creepy? Not really, when you examine them. Weird? A bit, yes.

This is obviously a Norwegian thing, but it looks to me like "religion", the socialisation of young people into a particular mindset in the same way that Evangelical groups in the UK do outreach. It's actually very similar, camps, songs, debates and talks from eminent guest speakers.

This chimes with my impression of the reaction from Norwegians to the attack, the two words that came up the most were "love" and "forgiveness". The pitch was entirely Christian, but I know Norway is a very secular country with quite low levels of observance, notwithstanding the automatic flocking to the Cathedral in Oslo as a focal point for mourning.

My tentative conclusion is that Norwegians have replaced religion with secular politics in what almost looks like a "bait and switch", which explains why Norway lacks the social vacume of, say, Britain, and why their political engagement is so energetic.

It's not particular to Norway.


All (mainstream) French political parties have active youth movements, and they all go on camp in summer. There is nothing weird, creepy, Hitlerjugend or whatever about this Norwegian youth camp. It is merely the finest workings of the European democratic tradition in action.

French rightwing youth: http://www.jeunesump.fr/
French leftwing youth: http://www.jeunes-socialistes.fr/
Etcetera for dozens more of political persuasions and etcetera for dozens more Western countries. All of their youth movements are out camping this summer. Sometimes just a single party, sometimes several, gathering for 'Student UN', 'Young EU', etc.


The only thing weird here is the fascism of the attacker. It is the old fascist urge rearing its ugly head again. The tendency to regard people of other persuasion as a mortal enemy, to project this onto the other and assume he too is plotting your total annihilation, the idea that only the fascist represents the nation, and that all others are traitors to be fought to death.
The brownshirts are back. This is about intimidating and finally banning any gatherings not belonging to the fascist side. European hardright populism is simply neo-fascism. Useless, the ideology of bitter isolated men with a grudge and an internet connection.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Yes, the real question in the massacre of an island is, "What were they doing on the island?"

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

It's not particular to Norway.


All (mainstream) French political parties have active youth movements, and they all go on camp in summer. There is nothing weird, creepy, Hitlerjugend or whatever about this Norwegian youth camp. It is merely the finest workings of the European democratic tradition in action.

French rightwing youth: http://www.jeunesump.fr/
French leftwing youth: http://www.jeunes-socialistes.fr/
Etcetera for dozens more of political persuasions and etcetera for dozens more Western countries. All of their youth movements are out camping this summer. Sometimes just a single party, sometimes several, gathering for 'Student UN', 'Young EU', etc.

In "particularly Scandanavian" I was refering to HoreTore's comment. As far as political youth camps, similar things exist in the UK too, though I don't know about residentual "camps" as such there certainly are "youth" movements for particular parties, there's a great picture of William Hague with a mellet at a Young Conservatives rally in the 80's.

To British eyes, however, the fact that underage, non-electors, are present feels are littel wierd.

The only thing weird here is the fascism of the attacker. It is the old fascist urge rearing its ugly head again. The tendency to regard people of other persuasion as a mortal enemy, to project this onto the other and assume he too is plotting your total annihilation, the idea that only the fascist represents the nation, and that all others are traitors to be fought to death.
The brownshirts are back. This is about intimidating and finally banning any gatherings not belonging to the fascist side. European hardright populism is simply neo-fascism. Useless, the ideology of bitter isolated men with a grudge and an internet connection.

This view has nothing to do with Facism, it is a part of most radical revolutionary movements, it manifested in the French Terror and all Communist Revolutions as well as Facist Italy and Nazi Germany. It was more terrible in Soviet Russia and Revolutionary France than Facist Italy, so to describe it as "Facist" is disingenuous, and risks obscurring the real cause of these violent reactions. A lack of compassion on the part of the perpetrator, in the case of mass-movements that adopt this attitude the blame lies also with the target of their hatred who have failed to engage them properly.

[CBR]

What is all the fuss about? Is it that youth, who has a common interest (in this case political), has the audacity to create a youth organisation? Is it the weird concept of large social gatherings by such organisations? Or do people just don't like small islands?

[Fragony]

What is all the fuss about? Is it that youth, who has a common interest (in this case political), has the audacity to create a youth organisation? Is it the weird concept of large social gatherings by such organisations? Or do people just don't like small islands?

It's Norway, the most anti-semite country in the developed world, where even universities boycott anything Israel. Where labour organises youth camps with break-the-blockade games.

Not just Israel;

Question to our American members (the country not the continent, Canada is 100% ok), ever noticed something with teh Vikings. Not Denmark, but with Swedes and Norwegians. Aren't they all saying the same things, and a bit mean in general

Very creepy, stepherd wives society

[Major Robert Dump]

I went to a Young Democrats meeting in college and they encouraged me to make out with other boys, but only boys of a different race. It was really creepy and I didn't go back. The next week I tried a Young Republicans meeting, and that was a little easier to deal with because only the Baptists were gay

[Papewaio]

What is all the fuss about? Is it that youth, who has a common interest (in this case political), has the audacity to create a youth organisation? Is it the weird concept of large social gatherings by such organisations? Or do people just don't like small islands?

Possibly because the term youth is generally considered under 18 and younger (it can be under 25 too). So there was a perception that this was political indoctrination of under 18s/

We have similar young politician parties here in Aus. They're university wannabes and a lot of the elected officials come through these organisations and/or the unions.

[Centurion1]

I went to a Young Democrats meeting in college and they encouraged me to make out with other boys, but only boys of a different race. It was really creepy and I didn't go back. The next week I tried a Young Republicans meeting, and that was a little easier to deal with because only the Baptists were gay

I went to a young communists meeting and everyone just had sex with everybody else. They said they had nationalized our lust. But only a few of the seniors were allowed to go with the girls. I went to a young libertarian meeting, no one was there.

[HoreTore]

Where labour organises youth camps with break-the-blockade games.

No brain activity at all. I'm quite speechless.

[Fragony]

No brain activity at all. I'm quite speechless.

That is normal when there is no brain activity

[HoreTore]

That is normal when there is no brain activity

Where, pray tell, have labour organized youth camps with break the blockade games?

[Fragony]

Where, pray tell, have labour organized youth camps with break the blockade games?

And outburst rewarded anti-Israel speeches and boycott Israel signs. Glad we at least agree on Norway being the most anti-semite country in the developed world and universities boycotting anything Israel

[HoreTore]

And outburst rewarded anti-Israel speeches and boycott Israel signs. Glad we at least agree on Norway being the most anti-semite country in the developed world and universities boycotting anything Israel

What drivel.

[Viking]

It's Norway, the most anti-semite country in the developed world, where even universities boycott anything Israel. Where labour organises youth camps with break-the-blockade games.

No such boyotts exist. But I hear Fragony has purple ears.

[Fragony]

No such boyotts exist. But I hear Fragony has purple ears.

http://www.google.nl/url?sa=t&source...mt3j7kja0Q6Pmw

It must have passed, as non-palilovers aren't allowed

[Hax]

most anti-semite country

Crucial flaw: confusing anti-Israelism with anti-semitism. Just because people are opposed to the state of Israel (Orthodox Jewish groups too, like the Neturei Karta), does not mean they hate Jews. That's silly and a bit childish.

[Fragony]

Crucial flaw: confusing anti-Israelism with anti-semitism. Just because people are opposed to the state of Israel (Orthodox Jewish groups too, like the Neturei Karta), does not mean they hate Jews. That's silly and a bit childish.

Things don't necessarily have to be speaked out, absolute utter silence is also saying a lot. If it isn't anti-semitism, it's at least paliphilae

You can't absolutely adore Hamas (&Fatah) without siding with child-killers, simple as that

Talking about absolutely adoring, look at our own labour (pic). Wish I ever got grateful looks like that http://www.pim-fortuyn.nl/pfforum/to...TOPIC_ID=76360

[Ironside]

Things don't necessarily have to be speaked out, absolute utter silence is also saying a lot. If it isn't anti-semitism, it's at least paliphilae

You can't absolutely adore Hamas (&Fatah) without siding with child-killers, simple as that

So can you do that with Israel? They are much more efficient of killing children after all...

[Fisherking]

Things don't necessarily have to be speaked out, absolute utter silence is also saying a lot. If it isn't anti-semitism, it's at least paliphilae

You can't absolutely adore Hamas (&Fatah) without siding with child-killers, simple as that

Talking about absolutely adoring, look at our own labour (pic). Wish I ever got grateful looks like that http://www.pim-fortuyn.nl/pfforum/to...TOPIC_ID=76360

You know that Israel has quite a propaganda machine.

Anything against Israel is often construed as anti-Semitic.

That does a lot to discredit any opposition.

Regardless of what political tactics were being taught on the island, do you think it justifies what happened there the next day?

This is not like you uncovered a cult of socialist cannibals.

[Fragony]

You know that Israel has quite a propaganda machine.

'Regardless of what political tactics were being taught on the island, do you think it justifies what happened there the next day?'

No, I an perfectly willing to acknowledge that this was an act of terrorism and that the killer comes from us, speaks like us. But a little bit of reflection the other way around would be great

edit, if one of my fellow rightwingers try to dismiss it as just a madman, feel free to punch him in the face. We all have a lot to discuss, it's the only way forward

[Papewaio]

Crucial flaw: confusing anti-Israelism with anti-semitism. Just because people are opposed to the state of Israel (Orthodox Jewish groups too, like the Neturei Karta), does not mean they hate Jews. That's silly and a bit childish.

Actually you can go one step further. Disagreeing with the policies of the Israeli government does not make you an enemy of the state of Israel or mean that you hate Jews.

After all it is a staple of democracies to disagree with ones government, even if you voted for them.

[Adrian II]

I went to a young communists meeting and everyone just had sex with everybody else. They said they had nationalized our lust. But only a few of the seniors were allowed to go with the girls. I went to a young libertarian meeting, no one was there.

ROFL!