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We will now witness a back-to-back-to-back battle unfolding between 3 of the greatest cavalry commanders in history...
>>>Tale of the tape...
Takeda Shingen(and the Takeda clan): Widely known for their superior cavalry tactics and high-quality horses.
Genghis Khan: Another renowned commander who practically launched a blitz on Europe
Surenas: A commander known in history as having wiped out the Romans in the infamous Battle of Carrhae
>>>Battle Specs
Terrain: An open field battle on grassy flatlands(virtually miles and miles of flat landscape with no height advantage whatsoever)
Weather: Clear and pleasantly sunny
>>>Army Specs
*for now guys I need some insights as to the size of the armies at their respective time-spans before I can give out a final army specification...
Right now, I just want your opinion as to who has the biggest chance of winning this royal rumble of cavalry!
NOW GET POSTING!
>>>Tale of the tape...
Takeda Shingen(and the Takeda clan): Widely known for their superior cavalry tactics and high-quality horses.
Genghis Khan: Another renowned commander who practically launched a blitz on Europe
Surenas: A commander known in history as having wiped out the Romans in the infamous Battle of Carrhae
>>>Battle Specs
Terrain: An open field battle on grassy flatlands(virtually miles and miles of flat landscape with no height advantage whatsoever)
Weather: Clear and pleasantly sunny
>>>Army Specs
*for now guys I need some insights as to the size of the armies at their respective time-spans before I can give out a final army specification...
Right now, I just want your opinion as to who has the biggest chance of winning this royal rumble of cavalry!
NOW GET POSTING!
I have to admit that I think Takeda Shingen is one of the most overrated people in feudal history. I'm a huge Japanese history buff, and I just never understood why he's such an admiration-grabber from the west. He was feared, he was a good civil leader, he definitely had a fearsome reputation. He also spent his entire life conquering about as much land as the greater Los Angeles metropolitan area, eventually got hemmed in, and his son lost all of it in a matter of years.
I never understood why Takeda Shingen is held up so highly by western fans of samurai history considering that there were contemporaries of Takeda (Oda Nobunaga, Tokugawa Ieyasu, Hashiba Hideyoshi) who conquered way more with frequently smaller, lower quality armies.
I never understood why Takeda Shingen is held up so highly by western fans of samurai history considering that there were contemporaries of Takeda (Oda Nobunaga, Tokugawa Ieyasu, Hashiba Hideyoshi) who conquered way more with frequently smaller, lower quality armies.
Imo is very popular in the west for the Fūrinkazan...
While in the east, because of his rivalry with Uesugi Kenshin...
But I agree with you, as for military prowess Takeda are definitely overrated...
While in the east, because of his rivalry with Uesugi Kenshin...
But I agree with you, as for military prowess Takeda are definitely overrated...
Originally Posted by Koga No Goshi:
I have to admit that I think Takeda Shingen is one of the most overrated people in feudal history. I'm a huge Japanese history buff, and I just never understood why he's such an admiration-grabber from the west. He was feared, he was a good civil leader, he definitely had a fearsome reputation. He also spent his entire life conquering about as much land as the greater Los Angeles metropolitan area, eventually got hemmed in, and his son lost all of it in a matter of years.
I never understood why Takeda Shingen is held up so highly by western fans of samurai history considering that there were contemporaries of Takeda (Oda Nobunaga, Tokugawa Ieyasu, Hashiba Hideyoshi) who conquered way more with frequently smaller, lower quality armies.
I agree. At best Shingen was a regional power. His way towards someone to be considered as possible uniter was halted by the Uesugi in North, Hojo in East and Tokugawa/Oda at West. Unlike for example Oda Nobunaga he could not break out against all odds. The Nagao/ Uesugi ruled by Uesugi Kenshin, seem to have actually been weaker then Takeda economically and militarily, so stopping the Takeda beyond Shinano was a strategic victory for them if anything.I have to admit that I think Takeda Shingen is one of the most overrated people in feudal history. I'm a huge Japanese history buff, and I just never understood why he's such an admiration-grabber from the west. He was feared, he was a good civil leader, he definitely had a fearsome reputation. He also spent his entire life conquering about as much land as the greater Los Angeles metropolitan area, eventually got hemmed in, and his son lost all of it in a matter of years.
I never understood why Takeda Shingen is held up so highly by western fans of samurai history considering that there were contemporaries of Takeda (Oda Nobunaga, Tokugawa Ieyasu, Hashiba Hideyoshi) who conquered way more with frequently smaller, lower quality armies.
I'm flabbergasted but pleased that some other Japan history buffs agree, lol. I guess it's all about style and presentation when it comes to the popularity of figures in the west; Takeda and Toyotomi seem to be favorites and both were sorta big flashy, I'm going to totally wow you with my awesomeness types, whereas I see Nobunaga and Tokugawa as like, the lean, pugnacious, lost an eye in a fight but got back up and won types.
I hold respect for Tokugawa and Uesgai and Takeda.I think these 3 generals were the best in Japanese history.Takeda was a calm relaxed general that respected Kenshin.Oda Nobunaga was nowhere near compared to these 3.Uesgai was an excellent enemy.Takeda had 24 generals,and they were the best in Japan.Kenshin was Turrene.Takeda was Napoeon,however Nobunaga was Wellington.
Replace Takeda for Attila the Hun. Now we've got ourselves a horse-archer pandemonium!
The Parthians probably hold a slight advantage in melee since their heavy cavalry was composed of different types of cataphracts, while the Huns and Mongols had heavy lancers. But if the battlefield is an endless open plain, Cataphracts lose in speed and stamina to catch them.
If you put those 3 commanders with their armies in their prime, it truly has to be an endless battlefield. The sheer number of horse-archers would make it an amazing (and chaotic) sight to behold. However, an all-horse battle wouldn't be quite realistic. All of them had some kind of auxiliary/mercenary light infantry or foot-archers to some extent, the Parthians with the biggest percentage of the trio.
You could place the infanty guarding the camp, and the virtual goal is to take the enemies tents where they keep their families and their treasures. Otherwise is a battle that could stretch for months or even years over the steppes, with feint charges, feint retreats and so on.
The Parthians probably hold a slight advantage in melee since their heavy cavalry was composed of different types of cataphracts, while the Huns and Mongols had heavy lancers. But if the battlefield is an endless open plain, Cataphracts lose in speed and stamina to catch them.
If you put those 3 commanders with their armies in their prime, it truly has to be an endless battlefield. The sheer number of horse-archers would make it an amazing (and chaotic) sight to behold. However, an all-horse battle wouldn't be quite realistic. All of them had some kind of auxiliary/mercenary light infantry or foot-archers to some extent, the Parthians with the biggest percentage of the trio.
You could place the infanty guarding the camp, and the virtual goal is to take the enemies tents where they keep their families and their treasures. Otherwise is a battle that could stretch for months or even years over the steppes, with feint charges, feint retreats and so on.
Takeda, mate, be a bit objective...
Nobunaga conceived ingenious plans and among his generals were people like: Shibata, Kinoshita, Mori, Sassa, Maeda etc...
I don't know about comparing generals, never liked it...
Nobunaga conceived ingenious plans and among his generals were people like: Shibata, Kinoshita, Mori, Sassa, Maeda etc...
I don't know about comparing generals, never liked it...
Originally Posted by Arjos:
Takeda, mate, be a bit objective...
Nobunaga conceived ingenious plans and among his generals were people like: Shibata, Kinoshita, Mori, Sassa, Maeda etc...
I don't know about comparing generals, never liked it...
If he convieced ingenious plans.Then how did Kenshin defeat Nobunaga?Takeda, mate, be a bit objective...
Nobunaga conceived ingenious plans and among his generals were people like: Shibata, Kinoshita, Mori, Sassa, Maeda etc...
I don't know about comparing generals, never liked it...
Not saying the Uesugi were incapable, but at that time you mentioned, Oda forces were expanding in a lot more regions...
On one side you have a clan who started with few towns in Owari and conquered half of Honshu; while on the other hand forces who never managed to go beyond regional domains...
On one side you have a clan who started with few towns in Owari and conquered half of Honshu; while on the other hand forces who never managed to go beyond regional domains...
Originally Posted by Arjos:
Not saying the Uesugi were incapable, but at that time you mentioned, Oda forces were expanding in a lot more regions...
On one side you have a clan who started with few towns in Owari and conquered half of Honshu; while on the other hand forces who never managed to go beyond regional domains...
Because they were clever.If Kenshin and Takeda had a alliance,then they would have expanded.Nobunaga holds no respect for me.Not saying the Uesugi were incapable, but at that time you mentioned, Oda forces were expanding in a lot more regions...
On one side you have a clan who started with few towns in Owari and conquered half of Honshu; while on the other hand forces who never managed to go beyond regional domains...
I don't know if Shingen or Kenshin would have ever acted as Nobunaga did at Dengaku-hazama...
And it's a completely different story if they formed an alliance, which by the way would have been very different from the Oda-Matsudaira one...
Also Tedorigawa had the Uesugi with an initial advantage, as they had time to prepare, while the Oda were rushing to support their vassal, who switched alliance...
And it's a completely different story if they formed an alliance, which by the way would have been very different from the Oda-Matsudaira one...
Also Tedorigawa had the Uesugi with an initial advantage, as they had time to prepare, while the Oda were rushing to support their vassal, who switched alliance...
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