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Taliban are claiming that they shot down a Chinnok heli with 25 Navy SEALS & 7 Afghan soldiers aboard.
I havn't seen any news to confirm if it was definitely a rocket attack or mechanical failure.
Condolences to the families either way.
I havn't seen any news to confirm if it was definitely a rocket attack or mechanical failure.
Condolences to the families either way.
It's confirmed. Military is saying all of the dead were special ops, which makes a tragedy that much more painful.
A sad day.
My heart goes out to the families.
My heart goes out to the families.
Originally Posted by Lemur:
It's confirmed. Military is saying all of the dead were special ops, which makes a tragedy that much more painful.
More painful as a military loss, I suppose, not as a personal tragedy? It's confirmed. Military is saying all of the dead were special ops, which makes a tragedy that much more painful.
It appears that this was the very outfit that killed Osama. If that is true, then either God is with the Taliban after all or they're getting better by the day. Man, what a coincidence.
AII
Originally Posted by Adrian II:
More painful as a military loss, I suppose, not as a personal tragedy?
It appears that this was the very outfit that killed Osama. If that is true, then either God is with the Taliban after all or they're getting better by the day. Man, what a coincidence.
AII
They got shot out of a Chinook helo More painful as a military loss, I suppose, not as a personal tragedy?
It appears that this was the very outfit that killed Osama. If that is true, then either God is with the Taliban after all or they're getting better by the day. Man, what a coincidence.
AII
If they killed them in a firefight I believe everybody would be a bit more shell shocked. Some of the SEALS have been unconfirmed members of seal team six which did the operation. The chances of the individuals who completed said mission being in theater is relatively low since the the military likes to pull out its SF forces for a while after such a high profile mission.
And I am sure that Lemur simply phrased that incorrectly because the life of anyone one individual is a tragedy and the death of any individual is as equally tragic as the loss of any others.
This is what happens when we run missions with our Afghan "partners." 5th incident I know of in two weeks, and I am very much out-of-the-loop this time around, so I am sure there are more. I will explain more in a few days.
This incident would almost make you believe there is a war going on or something.
Originally Posted by Shibumi:
This incident would almost make you believe there is a war going on or something.
It's our war and these guys were our allies. Could members at least postpone dancing on their remains until after they are buried?This incident would almost make you believe there is a war going on or something.
AII
Our war? Really? That's news to me. UK soldiers have been dragged into a war the USA is fighting to get back at some terrorists, but it is not ours.
And so we can only celebrate the assassination of "bad" people - by the colleagues of these very people who, incidentally, are the "good" guys.
And so we can only celebrate the assassination of "bad" people - by the colleagues of these very people who, incidentally, are the "good" guys.
Originally Posted by Adrian II:
More painful as a military loss, I suppose, not as a personal tragedy?
Yes, painful as a military loss, and painful for us as a nation. Tier-one special forces operatives are expensive to train and expensive to equip. And they don't come along every day.More painful as a military loss, I suppose, not as a personal tragedy?
Let's put it this way, if a bus crashes and kills the high school diving team, that's a tragedy. If the same bus crashes and kills your elite olympic diving team, it's still a tragedy, but also a national loss.
I'm not making any sense. Never mind. Adrian doesn't like me and he picks on me at recess and he steals my lunch money.
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk:
Our war? Really? That's news to me. UK soldiers have been dragged into a war the USA is fighting to get back at some terrorists, but it is not ours.
And so we can only celebrate the assassination of "bad" people - by the colleagues of these very people who, incidentally, are the "good" guys.
Libya.Our war? Really? That's news to me. UK soldiers have been dragged into a war the USA is fighting to get back at some terrorists, but it is not ours.
And so we can only celebrate the assassination of "bad" people - by the colleagues of these very people who, incidentally, are the "good" guys.
Originally Posted by Lemur:
I'm not making any sense. Never mind. Adrian doesn't like me and he picks on me at recess and he steals my lunch money.
No, I was just asking, honestly. I know ur no fool, Lemur. I'm not making any sense. Never mind. Adrian doesn't like me and he picks on me at recess and he steals my lunch money.
AII
Originally Posted by Hosakawa Tito:
Libya.
for that to be a complete parallel situation the US would have to have actual boots on the ground in Libya...Libya.
as to the actual subject of the topic...to be expected...it's a war....soldiers die in war.
Originally Posted by Adrian II:
More painful as a military loss, I suppose, not as a personal tragedy?
It appears that this was the very outfit that killed Osama. If that is true, then either God is with the Taliban after all or they're getting better by the day. Man, what a coincidence.
AII
God? No, that is seeing what you believe. Thr 'OBL squad (members)' could be more likely to get killed for a number of reasons. Two in particular I guess might have been at work here. One, Afghan allies getting even. Afghan enemies of themselves had no information on who these people were, Afghan 'alies' quite possibly did. More painful as a military loss, I suppose, not as a personal tragedy?
It appears that this was the very outfit that killed Osama. If that is true, then either God is with the Taliban after all or they're getting better by the day. Man, what a coincidence.
AII
And /or. two, this squad (or members) getting reckless, thinking themselves invincible, superior, on top of the world.
I remember I cheered OBL's demise - albeit after he was buried. (which most conveniently was over and done with the minute the news broke
)I suppose we're all entitled to picking a side. Personally I had rather 31 Taliban had perished.
Originally Posted by Ronin:
for that to be a complete parallel situation the US would have to have actual boots on the ground in Libya...
as to the actual subject of the topic...to be expected...it's a war....soldiers die in war.
You're under the impression that there are no US/UK/French special forces boots on the ground in Libya? Interesting. Who started that Libyan intervention thing by the way hmm? Or is it just bombing, with no boots on the ground it really isn't hostilities by the US allies "trained killers" is it, nice and clean and humanitarian like. In war young men die. Y'all want to cheer that's up to you and your values.for that to be a complete parallel situation the US would have to have actual boots on the ground in Libya...
as to the actual subject of the topic...to be expected...it's a war....soldiers die in war.
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat:
God? No, that is seeing what you believe. Thr 'OBL squad (members)' could be more likely to get killed for a number of reasons. Two in particular I guess might have been at work here. One, Afghan allies getting even. Afghan enemies of themselves had no information on who these people were, Afghan 'alies' quite possibly did.
And /or. two, this squad (or members) getting reckless, thinking themselves invincible, superior, on top of the world.
I remember I cheered OBL's demise - albeit after he was buried. (which most conveniently was over and done with the minute the news broke)
I suppose we're all entitled to picking a side. Personally I had rather 31 Taliban had perished.
There's a report that the Seals were on a rescue mission to aid a Ranger unit that was pinned down. Seems they got hit when the attacking force had been suppressed and the mission was almost over.God? No, that is seeing what you believe. Thr 'OBL squad (members)' could be more likely to get killed for a number of reasons. Two in particular I guess might have been at work here. One, Afghan allies getting even. Afghan enemies of themselves had no information on who these people were, Afghan 'alies' quite possibly did.
And /or. two, this squad (or members) getting reckless, thinking themselves invincible, superior, on top of the world.
I remember I cheered OBL's demise - albeit after he was buried. (which most conveniently was over and done with the minute the news broke
)I suppose we're all entitled to picking a side. Personally I had rather 31 Taliban had perished.
Originally Posted by Hosakawa Tito:
There's a report that the Seals were on a rescue mission to aid a Ranger unit that was pinned down. Seems they got hit when the attacking force had been suppressed and the mission was almost over.
Pentagon says it was a 'lucky shot' with an rpg. But they've said that before for pr reasons, in cases where the Taliban had used a surface to air missile.There's a report that the Seals were on a rescue mission to aid a Ranger unit that was pinned down. Seems they got hit when the attacking force had been suppressed and the mission was almost over.
Anyway, I quite agree with those who criticise US polities in Afghanistan. But you know what? Some of those US soldiers may have been critical as well. But soldiers don't have a complaint commission where they can all sit down with a nice cup of tea and discuss any orders they just happen to dislike. Some of them probably hated this war. Most of them probably disliked war in general, because the only people who really like warfare are psychopaths who are unfit for teamwork.
These are just everyday human considerations, every one of you is capable of understanding them. To applaud their death is unnecessary and spiteful, to put it mildly.
AII
Originally Posted by Adrian II:
To applaud their death is unnecessary and spiteful, to put it mildly.
AII
If Breivik had been killed midway his act, I would've applauded his death. Say, if a Norwegian police bullet had stopped him after his tenth, instead of his eightieth victim.To applaud their death is unnecessary and spiteful, to put it mildly.
AII
If Breivik would've gotten away, and had spend the past two weeks sending around triumphant, gleeful messages and tips for copycats, then if today the Norwegians would've found him and shot him in a forest cabin in Sweden I would've applauded it.
If they would've shot him in his woodland cabin ten years later, I still would've applauded it.
In all cases, I would've applauded the Norwegian police, would've welcomed the justice being done, and would've cheered this man's violent death.
Originally Posted by AII:
Anyway, I quite agree with those who criticise US polities in Afghanistan. But you know what? Some of those US soldiers may have been critical as well. But soldiers don't have a complaint commission where they can all sit down with a nice cup of tea and discuss any orders they just happen to dislike. Some of them probably hated this war. Most of them probably disliked war in general, because the only people who really like warfare are psychopaths who are unfit for teamwork.
From a pacifist or humatirarian point of view one can decry all loss of life. If one isn't a pacifist, at least not absolutely so, then why should one decry all loss of life in a conflict? One does not get a free pass, free entitlement to sympathy, simply for being a fighter in an armed conflict. On the contrary, I am tempted to say.Anyway, I quite agree with those who criticise US polities in Afghanistan. But you know what? Some of those US soldiers may have been critical as well. But soldiers don't have a complaint commission where they can all sit down with a nice cup of tea and discuss any orders they just happen to dislike. Some of them probably hated this war. Most of them probably disliked war in general, because the only people who really like warfare are psychopaths who are unfit for teamwork.
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat:
One does not get a free pass, free entitlement to sympathy, simply for being a fighter in an armed conflict.
Awesome. We have a strawman.One does not get a free pass, free entitlement to sympathy, simply for being a fighter in an armed conflict.
AII
Originally Posted by Adrian II:
Awesome. We have a strawman.
AII
It's not a strawman, it is a conscious further exploration of the subject.Awesome. We have a strawman.
AII
This calls for an actual strawman, with an order of Godwin on the side
:Originally Posted by AII:
Anyway, I quite agree with those who criticise US polities in Afghanistan. But you know what? Some of those US soldiers may have been critical as well. But soldiers don't have a complaint commission where they can all sit down with a nice cup of tea and discuss any orders they just happen to dislike. Some of them probably hated this war. Most of them probably disliked war in general, because the only people who really like warfare are psychopaths who are unfit for teamwork.
So if Hitler's troops can claim they were just following orders, you would forbid us from wanting them stopped?Anyway, I quite agree with those who criticise US polities in Afghanistan. But you know what? Some of those US soldiers may have been critical as well. But soldiers don't have a complaint commission where they can all sit down with a nice cup of tea and discuss any orders they just happen to dislike. Some of them probably hated this war. Most of them probably disliked war in general, because the only people who really like warfare are psychopaths who are unfit for teamwork.
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat:
So if Hitler's troops can claim they were just following orders, you would forbid us from wanting them stopped?
I want these gratuitous jokes about dead allies to stop.So if Hitler's troops can claim they were just following orders, you would forbid us from wanting them stopped?
AII
I love the smell of moral relativism in the morning
Sometimes you have to pick a side fellas
Sometimes you have to pick a side fellas
I often wonder whether the constant detailing of casualties is entirely healthy.
If we didn't detail casualties the Taliban would claim they killed 10x what they really did and we would have to clean up the mess. Being the first and the most forthcoming is always the best option in reporting, even if not everyone always does so.
Among the 25 U.S. special operations forces killed in Wardak province were 22 Navy SEALS
The majority of the Navy SEALs who died belonged to the same covert unit that conducted the raid that killed Osama bin Laden in May, though they were not the same men, the military official said.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f2c_1312681283
A British marine killed on Friday while on foot patrol in the Nad-e Ali district of Helmand province was shot by militants, the Ministry of Defence has announced.
The dead soldier was confirmed as 22-year-old Royal Marine James Robert Wright from Weymouth, Dorset.
http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/n...ew/full/107982
I assume that the other three US troops were the helicopter crew consisting of two pilots and the crew chief.
Also killed were 7 Afghan Commandos and a civilian interpreter.
Disagreeing with government policies (Wars) are one thing. Calling the men who are ordered there by those governments derogatory names and blaming them for the conflict is another matter.
They do not decide policy but only carry it out. Like any other government employee they may be charged with carrying out policies they deeply disagree with. However, they do not have the option to just say no and quit.
They were on a mission to rescue other troops pinned down by opposing forces.
To me it doesn’t matter if they came from an elite unit or support troops, US, British, German, Canadian, or anyone else.
They were in service to their country and their deaths are tragic for their friends and families.
The majority of the Navy SEALs who died belonged to the same covert unit that conducted the raid that killed Osama bin Laden in May, though they were not the same men, the military official said.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f2c_1312681283
A British marine killed on Friday while on foot patrol in the Nad-e Ali district of Helmand province was shot by militants, the Ministry of Defence has announced.
The dead soldier was confirmed as 22-year-old Royal Marine James Robert Wright from Weymouth, Dorset.
http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/n...ew/full/107982
I assume that the other three US troops were the helicopter crew consisting of two pilots and the crew chief.
Also killed were 7 Afghan Commandos and a civilian interpreter.
Disagreeing with government policies (Wars) are one thing. Calling the men who are ordered there by those governments derogatory names and blaming them for the conflict is another matter.
They do not decide policy but only carry it out. Like any other government employee they may be charged with carrying out policies they deeply disagree with. However, they do not have the option to just say no and quit.
They were on a mission to rescue other troops pinned down by opposing forces.
To me it doesn’t matter if they came from an elite unit or support troops, US, British, German, Canadian, or anyone else.
They were in service to their country and their deaths are tragic for their friends and families.
Originally Posted by Hosakawa Tito:
Y'all want to cheer that's up to you and your values.
If you think my simple observation that there is a war on, that people die in war, and I am not particularly surprised this occurs is the same as me cheering then we have a serious failure of communication here.Y'all want to cheer that's up to you and your values.
Just to check...we are using English right???
Originally Posted by Slyspy:
I often wonder whether the constant detailing of casualties is entirely healthy.
shaddap...we have a 24 hours news media thing going here.......come on, they can´t just scream about the stock market all day....we need some variety in there.I often wonder whether the constant detailing of casualties is entirely healthy.
Oh heavens! The conspiricy theorists on the internet are already saying the US did this! Can't we just hang these these disrespectful nutters?
As Tolstoj puts it in War and Peace:
"Had Napoleons corporals not agreed to join again, there would be no war."
"Had Napoleons corporals not agreed to join again, there would be no war."
Originally Posted by Skullhead:
Oh heavens! The conspiricy theorists on the internet are already saying the US did this! Can't we just hang these these disrespectful nutters?
It was not the same people who went for OBL. When they find that out they will have to scrape the egg off their faces.Oh heavens! The conspiricy theorists on the internet are already saying the US did this! Can't we just hang these these disrespectful nutters?
To some people everything is a conspiracy.
We have been getting accused by Pakistan and the Karsai government of killing our own troops and supplying the Taliban with weapons for 3 years now. Again, back to the illiterate Afghan theme. They say we are doing it to justify staying in Afghanistan so we can, ya know, exploit its riches. Several incidents of Afghan forces killing NATO troops have been sparked by this very rumor, to include one a month ago.
Originally Posted by Skullhead:
Oh heavens! The conspiricy theorists on the internet are already saying the US did this! Can't we just hang these these disrespectful nutters?
you´re a part of it aren´t you? Oh heavens! The conspiricy theorists on the internet are already saying the US did this! Can't we just hang these these disrespectful nutters?
you don´t fool me! I know the truth, I have the documents!
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