London riots

[HoreTore]

In Britain the Government foots the bill for a loss of Law and Order.

Ah. Wonderful.

To be honest, I don't know who takes the bill when we riot over here, I just know that the bill is paid. It was implied that the Londoners would be ruined now, glad to see that isn't the case.

[Skullheadhq]

Rioters, and not the government, should pay IMHO.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Rioters, and not the government, should pay IMHO.

Understandable view, but most of these people will be on benefits (or still at school) so the government would only be paying in a different way. (And yes, I accept Adrian's point that the demographic of these riots is somewhat different).

The government won't even punish these people with severe fines. I'd be happy to see all convicted forced to break rocks and then to rebuild all that they have destroyed through hard manual labour without pay. That would hit the middle class ethically challenged types particularly hard. Harder than daddy paying their £25 slap on the wrist.

[Fragony]

Rioters, and not the government, should pay IMHO.

The government showed amazing imcompetence dealing with this so it's right that they pay for the damage, it's their primary task to provide security and they failed miserably. I was kinda surprised to hear that using a mere watercannon needs aproval of the parlement, riot-police here uses it all the time. Supposed to hurt like hell but hey, it's usually used against squaters and they could absolutely use a shower

Not carrying any guns is also just silly.

[Furunculus]

now at 98,000 votes, only 2,000 more before it merits discussion in the commons:

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/7337

[HoreTore]

Now that is proper nonsense.

[gaelic cowboy]

In Britain the Government foots the bill for a loss of Law and Order.

How can you claim private citizens paying after a riot is more civilised?

Guy on the radio news here said though that it has to be proved it was a riot before you get any assistance, he then went on to say the government had not used the word riot in describing this craic.

[Furunculus]

Now that is proper nonsense.

hehe, you gotta love a little populism in times like this, keeps the politico's on their toes!

[Adrian II]

Cameron wants to block social media? How irrelevant can you get?

AII

[Tellos Athenaios]

why is that particular quote drivel?

Apart from the fact every single piece of information in the highlighted sentence is wrong?

the other solution is to ditch unmanaged immigration alongside a policy of multiculturalism, as it has been practised for the last thirty years. i.e. concentrate on assimilating the ones we have.

That doesn't fix the inequality alluded to in the article... Which, as noted by others already is probably not what spurred this particular series riots in the first place.

[Adrian II]

I blame the riots on GTA, the Kaiser Chiefs and bicycles.

AII

[Fragony]

Cameron wants to block social media? How irrelevant can you get?

AII

Worked for Iran

@Furunculus, your page doesn't load here, what is the petition about?

[HoreTore]

I blame the riots on GTA, the Kaiser Chiefs and bicycles.

AII

How delusional can one get?! Grow up, Adrian!

This riot is obviously caused by food with too much salt in it!



Edit: this gave me an idea... All the rioters we see are fit, young men. What if an aggressive junkfood campaign was launched, to get everyone under the age of 35 in Britain fat and with horrible stamina? No looting then, eh? I can see the slogan now:

A fatty Britain is a happy britain!

[Adrian II]

Worked for Iran ?

Seriously , what a pathetic excuse for a policy this is. Cut down on the number of policemen and cut off peoples' means of communication?

AII

[Husar]

what is the petition about?

"Convicted London rioters should loose all benefits."

I'm sure telling them they're going to starve in the streets will convince them to behave.

[Fragony]

"Convicted London rioters should loose all benefits."

I'm sure telling them they're going to starve in the streets will convince them to behave.

Don't think it's such a bad idea, if you live of tax money and loot the ones paying it, have a nice starvation. Now we can hardly let them starve so give them some rice, distributed weekly by their whatsitcalled-officer. But cutting benefits, why not. Giving them, why do

[Adrian II]

"Convicted London rioters should loose all benefits."

I'm sure telling them they're going to starve in the streets will convince them to behave.

In this whole debate in the British media and now in the House, I have heard Not. A. Single. Positive. Idea. and as for the House I have heard Not A Speck Of Self-Criticism.

The police were too late, says Cameron. Who was in Tuscany all the time then?
There are pockets in our society that are sick, says Cameron. Sure, how about banks, quango's and unethical MP's?
There are deeper causes to the riots, says Miliband. Right, and New Lab is one of them.

Where is Breivik when you need him?

AII

P.S. Just saw a nice tweet: Norway PM after Breivik said they would have more democracy, British PM after riots says 'Ur all sick!'

[Rhyfelwyr]

P.S. Just saw a nice tweet: Norway PM after Breivik said they would have more democracy, British PM after riots says 'Ur all sick!'

That would be because we don't all have the luxury of being Norway, and need a little more than some flowery rhetoric.

[InsaneApache]

I heard a guy on the radio yesterday talking about the looters. He said, what can you expect when we have politicians ripping off the taxpayer and in the main walking away laughing at us, corrupt and useless police, governments and bankers colluding to impoverish the population....etc. etc.

I didn't agree with his excusing the looters but it did put it into perspective.

Corrupt to the core.

[Furunculus]

Apart from the fact every single piece of information in the highlighted sentence is wrong?

Utter rot!

Indeed, London stopped being an English city some years ago and is now a dangerous cocktail of competing races, creeds and ethnicities on the front line of a new class war that one had hoped banished to the past.

London is no longer an english city, due to the extreme heterogeneity of its population:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_London

On the other hand, urbanisation and ethnic heterogeneity are both connected to rioting:

http://www.cityresearch.com/pubs/la_riot.pdf

Not to mention, that the riots have been characterised by the underclass participants, most tellingly by the criminal records of those who have showed up in court:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...779624,00.html

Which given the class-wars of the post WW2 british society in the decades that followed, we might reasonably wish not to see them again:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_War

So i am forced to conclude that your reply disparaging the veracity of the quoted statement is in itself UTTER drivel.

must try harder

[Fragony]

That would be because we don't all have the luxury of being Norway, and need a little more than some flowery rhetoric.

Don't be so hard on yourself so do they

[Adrian II]

I heard a guy on the radio yesterday talking about the looters. He said, what can you expect when we have politicians ripping off the taxpayer and in the main walking away laughing at us, corrupt and useless police, governments and bankers colluding to impoverish the population....etc. etc.

I didn't agree with his excusing the looters but it did put it into perspective.

Corrupt to the core.

Among the perps we see a millionaire's daughter, a postman, a social worker, a youth worker, a graphic designer, Moms and Dads, all sorts of normal professions and categories. What does that tell us? That it's not an issue of poverty or entitlement or disenfranchisement. The fabric of society seems to have come apart at least momentarily. This happens when a riot isn't quelled in time: all sorts of people will 'lose it' and join in the fray.

Bad policing (starting with the treatment of Duggan's family) is the #1 cause of this whole thing, no?

And cutting benefits and evicting people from their homes even after they have served their sentences is both gratuitous revenge and a recipe for further trouble.

AII

P.S. I blame the grandparents!

[Rhyfelwyr]

"Convicted London rioters should loose all benefits."

I'm sure telling them they're going to starve in the streets will convince them to behave.

Might not be so far or from happening as you think.

"The city council has also said it will seek to evict any council tenants found to have taken part in the trouble."

[HoreTore]

That would be because we don't all have the luxury of being Norway, and need a little more than some flowery rhetoric.

We had some rioting back in 2009, although obviously not quite to the scale London has now.

Our response? Dialogue and debating. And it worked. Abid Raja held townhall-ish meetings in the Literature House(the bastion of red wine drinking middle aged women) where the stone-throwers got an opportunity to went their frustration in a democratic manner, as well as listening to the stories of their victims. The the result? I higly doubt any of them will riot again.



As always, the solution is more democracy, more debate. Democracy and debate has shaped the societies we live in now, the most civilized societies in the world, and democracy and debate will continue to be the way forward.

The only real concern in our society nowadays is the apparent lack of faith in democracy. Resort to barbarism, and barbarism you will get. Stay true to the enlightenment, and enlightenment you will get.


Edit: that, plus making sure the british youth gets fatter and fatter, of course. A fat man is a happy man.

[Fragony]

Our response? Dialogue and debating. And it worked. Abid Raja held townhall-ish meetings in the Literature House(the bastion of red wine drinking middle aged women) where the stone-throwers got an opportunity to went their frustration in a democratic manner, as well as listening to the stories of their victims. The the result? I higly doubt any of them will riot again.

Those were anti-Israel riots done by anti-facists and radical muslims, nothing like this. But I have to admit that Norway listens so very very well. Why would they riot again when the PM is as proud as a monkey with seven dicks for having the incredible honour of shaking the hands of the head of the Fatah-jugend on a certain island

[Banquo's Ghost]

I heard a guy on the radio yesterday talking about the looters. He said, what can you expect when we have politicians ripping off the taxpayer and in the main walking away laughing at us, corrupt and useless police, governments and bankers colluding to impoverish the population....etc. etc.

I didn't agree with his excusing the looters but it did put it into perspective.

Corrupt to the core.

Personally speaking, if the police had baton charged these looters, leaving them crushed and bloody, and then used the momentum to drive into the City and smash the heads of the bankers and moneylenders as well, I would have been rather pleased. There is little difference between the hooded thug stealing Nike trainers and the chap in the stripy shirt and braces currently stealing the pensions and futures of taxpayers.

We had some rioting back in 2009, although obviously not quite to the scale London has now.

Our response? Dialogue and debating. And it worked. Abid Raja held townhall-ish meetings in the Literature House(the bastion of red wine drinking middle aged women) where the stone-throwers got an opportunity to went their frustration in a democratic manner, as well as listening to the stories of their victims. The the result? I higly doubt any of them will riot again.



As always, the solution is more democracy, more debate. Democracy and debate has shaped the societies we live in now, the most civilized societies in the world, and democracy and debate will continue to be the way forward.

The only real concern in our society nowadays is the apparent lack of faith in democracy. Resort to barbarism, and barbarism you will get. Stay true to the enlightenment, and enlightenment you will get.

In general, I agree. The fact is that riots of this nature are not particularly new to the UK - although the consumerist nature of these is a change. In most cases, lots of effort was expended in dialogue and lots got better. One could argue that the remarkable lack of a political aspect to these current lootings and the dignified behaviour of many communities that previously would be the ones at the forefront of the violence, demonstrates that the UK has dealt with previous civil unrest rather well.

The most disturbing aspect for me is the timidity of the police initially, and the complete cluelessness in political leadership.

[Adrian II]

I'm sure the Norwegian PM wouldn' t be speaking exclusiely of 'lost shops and property', but first and foremost of lost lives. And he would have visited Birmingham and spoken to the dead lads' parents instead of going to Wolverhampton and crying over lost groceries.

You know what Napoleon said about the British

AII

[Banquo's Ghost]

Those were anti-Israel riots done by anti-facists and radical muslims, nothing like this. But I have to admit that Norway listens so very very well. Why would they riot again when the PM is as proud as a monkey with seven dicks for having the incredible honour of shaking the hands of the head of the Fatah-jugend on a certain island

Fragony, for Pity's sake put on a new record.

[Fragony]

I'm sure the Norwegian PM wouldn' t be speaking exclusiely of 'lost shops and property', but first and foremost of lost lives.

Loss of life was day 4, lost shops and property 1 2 et 3

What he would probably do is build them a tennis court and a wild-water paradise by the way

[Furunculus]

I'm sure the Norwegian PM wouldn' t be speaking exclusiely of 'lost shops and property', but first and foremost of lost lives. And he would have visited Birmingham and spoken to the dead lads' parents instead of going to Wolverhampton and crying over lost groceries.

You know what Napoleon said about the British

AII

but remember; we are all the same and have the same priorities and desires, so governance and dictat from brussels will be considered to be precisely as representative of the peoples needs in dublin as in budapest.

;)