London riots

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Wait. I'm sorry. Are you saying the NYPD doesn't handle terrorism and national security?

The Met is basically the British FBI, which is the the Commisioner is a Commisioner and not a Chief Constable.

He is head honcho o' the British Police. Except he has to worry about the IPCC and HMIC.

[Greyblades]

The one thing that really made my blood boil this thread was someone said how they were using their blackberry networks to communicate. How poor and downtrodden can you be with a smartphone. It's absurd. I hate how people whine and moan about how bad they and their families have it while they wait to collect their monthly check all while they type away on their smartphones looking at new tv's to steal.

Corrected.
edit: dang ninja'd.

[Papewaio]

http://www.smh.com.au/world/britains...810-1ilfn.html

Despite the extraordinary scenes, some of those caught up in the chaos failed to lose their sense of humour.
A hand-written sign posted in the window of a Manchester Subway restaurant told customers: ‘‘Due to the imminent collapse of society we regret to announce we are closing at 6pm tonight’’.

An employee from Manchester bookstore Waterstones said the shop would not close its doors despite escalating violence in the city, saying: "We'll stay open. If they steal some books they might learn something."

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/britains...#ixzz1UaJndnal

Funny that the oppressed masses have no interest in books... all they want is sports gear, tvs & sound systems, phones and cash...

[Vladimir]

No he's saying that with Scotland Yard they are part city police force and FBI and national counter-terrorism. They also have a few in/famous unit(s) that are essentially SAS in police uniform.

That's pretty much what the NYPD does. It's called the post 9/11 world. There is also, of course, a large FBI presence in NY.

I'm not complaining but I hear the excuses coming. A bunch of kids are rioting unchecked in your (well, not your) capitol. Get it under control.

[Centurion1]

http://www.smh.com.au/world/britains...810-1ilfn.html



Funny that the oppressed masses have no interest in books... all they want is sports gear, tvs & sound systems, phones and cash...

classic british understatement right there by that employee.

[Greyblades]

Funny that the oppressed masses have no interest in books... all they want is sports gear, tvs & sound systems, phones and cash...

Ooh, I might go to london in the next few days and loot me some books if they arent going anywhere, always wanted the entire redwall collection and who's going to notice another looter?

...Damn thats probably the sort of thing thats going through the heads of most of the looters. I feel realy despicable for thinking it.

[Fragony]

LOL http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/1646...dd/rellen.html

[Adrian II]

The one thing that really made my blood boil this thread was someone said how they were using their blackberry networks to communicate. How poor and downtrodden can you be with a smartphone. It's absurd. I hate how people whine and moan about how bad they and their families have it while they wait to collect their monthly check all while they type away on their smartphones looking at new tv's to buy.

Nobody in the UK or elsewhere 'whined and moaned' they were poor, that's just a strawman. They don't all collect welfare checks either. In an earlier post I mentioned that quite a few rioters appearing in Magistrate's Court yesterday morning had jobs. Like football hooligans these are apparently normal youngsters running out of control as a result of bad parenting, bad policing, bad genes and bad examples in society at large. Nor is this anything new among British or other yoof. Reading A Clockwork Orange will inform you better about what's been going on than any rightwing or leftwing talking points.

There is a good article today in The Guardian about the mixed composition of the groups of looters. A quote:

Jay Kast, 24, a youth worker from East Ham who has witnessed rioting across London over the last three nights, said he was concerned that black community leaders were wrongly identifying a problem "within".

"I've seen Turkish boys, I've seen Asian boys, I've seen grown white men," he said. "They're all out there taking part." He recognised an element of opportunism in the mass looting but said an underlying cause was that many young people felt "trapped in the system". "They're disconnected from the community and they just don't care," he said.

In some senses the rioting has been unifying a cross-section of deprived young men who identify with each other, he added.

Kast gave the example of how territorial markers which would usually delineate young people's residential areas – known as 'endz', 'bits' and 'gates' – appear to have melted away.

"On a normal day it wouldn't be allowed – going in to someone else's area. A lot of them, on a normal day, wouldn't know each other and they might be fighting," Kast said.

"Now they can go wherever they want. They're recognising themselves from the people they see on the TV [rioting]. This is bringing them together."

Link

AII

[Crazed Rabbit]

I'm in agreement with Adrian. The rioters with jobs shot down my thoughts that these were mostly welfare bums.

In the end it shows how fragile civilization is, and how close 'normal' people are to rioting and destroying for fun. One final quote;

In his coffee shop in Stoke Newington, Karagoz tried to explain another feature of these riots – why Turkish and Kurdish youths had generally not joined the looting.

"We have businesses and work hard for what we have. As parents we want our children to work, earn money and be able to buy what they want, not steal it. Our young people know we would be ashamed of them if they were doing this."

CR

[Adrian II]

I'm in agreement with Adrian. The rioters with jobs shot down my thoughts that these were mostly welfare bums.

In the end it shows how fragile civilization is, and how close 'normal' people are to rioting and destroying for fun. One final quote;



CR

I haven't seen one Chinese among the rioters either. I suppose some ethnic minorities cultivate traditional, even rural virtues which "we" as a society have forgotten, like: hard work, sense of duty, education, sacrifice, respect.

Instead we let these kids roam the streets unopposed, just as we let our bankers rob us blind without a peep.

AII

[Ignoramus]

The only way to stop such anarchy is by using force, and hard. The police's softly softly tactics have just emboldened the anarchists. There may be an underlying problem causing this in society, but anyone engaging in such disgusting behaviour cannot expect to have the rights of protection afforded to them.

[Adrian II]

The only way to stop such anarchy is by using force, and hard. The police's softly softly tactics have just emboldened the anarchists. There may be an underlying problem causing this in society, but anyone engaging in such disgusting behaviour cannot expect to have the rights of protection afforded to them.

They should probably have clamped down immediately when the rioting in Tottenham started. For days on end, thugs of all age and races and creeds have seen on tv that they can rule the streets because the police will retreat. Policing has been a disaster, just like it was in France in 2005 where police stood idly by as thugs ransacked their own neighbourhood for days, until copycats all across France had seen enough and began to emulate them.

AII

Painting by Nicola Verlato

[Visor]

The only way to stop such anarchy is by using force, and hard. The police's softly softly tactics have just emboldened the anarchists. There may be an underlying problem causing this in society, but anyone engaging in such disgusting behaviour cannot expect to have the rights of protection afforded to them.

Agreed 100% here. Force is what is needed.

[Ronin]

The only way to stop such anarchy is by using force, and hard. The police's softly softly tactics have just emboldened the anarchists. There may be an underlying problem causing this in society, but anyone engaging in such disgusting behaviour cannot expect to have the rights of protection afforded to them.

totally agree.
you don´t discuss underlying causes when the forest is already burning, you call the firefighters and dump a whole lot of water on it.
after you put the fires out you can look at the underlying causes to try to make sure it doesn´t happen again....but not before you control the situation.
put the police and the army in the streets and start kicking some serious ass.

[Papewaio]

who's going to notice another looter?

I think you've hit one of the nails square on the head.

The internet has seen trolls abound due to the simple fact they can be anonymous.

Now instead of getting cheap thrills on the internet, imagine the risk reward equation when you can get your favourite things for free.

It would not surprise me that a higher then normal ratio of the rioters would be trolls on the internet too... kind of like how serial killers are more likely to abuse animals... there's someone's PhD Thesis to study.

[econ21]

Force is what is needed.

It is easy to say this, but in practice, things are more nuanced. Remember that what sparked the riots was the police shooting dead a young man in Tottenham. I can't blame the police for not being more heavy handed in the first night of rioting after that. Ex ante, it might be thought that a more forceful response would further inflame the situation. However, ex post, it does seem that the apparent policy of containment and allowing several hours of unimpeded looting encouraged wider outbreaks the following night. I guess the police have learned from that.

The following night, I think there were simply not enough police around to cope. You've probably seen the video in this thread of 8 riot police confronting a mob and having to retreat. Using force in that situation was just not an option: they would have been overwhelmed.

Last night there were finally enough police in London, but the depleted numbers elsewhere - notably Manchester - enabled parallel copy cat action elsewhere.

[Adrian II]

I think you've hit one of the nails square on the head.

The internet has seen trolls abound due to the simple fact they can be anonymous.

Now instead of getting cheap thrills on the internet, imagine the risk reward equation when you can get your favourite things for free.

It would not surprise me that a higher then normal ratio of the rioters would be trolls on the internet too... kind of like how serial killers are more likely to abuse animals... there's someone's PhD Thesis to study.

I think anonymous web trolls would be risk-evaders rather than thrill seekers, no?

AII

[Ignoramus]

It is easy to say this, but in practice, things are more nuanced. Remember that what sparked the riots was the police shooting dead a young man in Tottenham. I can't blame the police for not being more heavy handed in the first night of rioting after that. Ex ante, it might be thought that a more forceful response would further inflame the situation. However, ex post, it does seem that the apparent policy of containment and allowing several hours of unimpeded looting encouraged wider outbreaks the following night. I guess the police have learned from that.

The following night, I think there were simply not enough police around to cope. You've probably seen the video in this thread of 8 riot police confronting a mob and having to retreat. Using force in that situation was just not an option: they would have been overwhelmed.

Last night there were finally enough police in London, but the depleted numbers elsewhere - notably Manchester - enabled parallel copy cat action elsewhere.

What's your view on whether they should send in the army?

[Adrian II]

It is easy to say this, but in practice, things are more nuanced. Remember that what sparked the riots was the police shooting dead a young man in Tottenham. I can't blame the police for not being more heavy handed in the first night of rioting after that. Ex ante, it might be thought that a more forceful response would further inflame the situation. However, ex post, it does seem that the apparent policy of containment and allowing several hours of unimpeded looting encouraged wider outbreaks the following night. I guess the police have learned from that.

The following night, I think there were simply not enough police around to cope. You've probably seen the video in this thread of 8 riot police confronting a mob and having to retreat. Using force in that situation was just not an option: they would have been overwhelmed.

Last night there were finally enough police in London, but the depleted numbers elsewhere - notably Manchester - enabled parallel copy cat action elsewhere.

I appreciate your realistic assessment. As bad as this is, London is not a warzone. I would say however that the police should have intervened much more forcefully the moment the first building was set alight in Tottenham. That's a definite no-no in any civilized society. It goes beyond protest, it signals the start of random violence and the victimisation of innocents on an ever increasing scale. The Met, like every British or other western police force, are supposed to have a special unit of heavyweights for these situations. They have rubber bullets, special batons and water canon at their disposal, suitable for dousing the flames in every sense of the word. Use them before it's too late.

AII

[Papewaio]

I think anonymous web trolls would be risk-evaders rather than thrill seekers, no?

AII

That is one of the things, most of them think that they are just one more hoody in a crowd... they aren't on the whole marching around with their faces uncovered.

Trolls get a thrill out of making misery of other people... I've seen some of the footage on BBC.co.uk of a rioter calmly going up to a store and lighting some clothes on fire... it wasn't to steal anything... it was purely the thrill of destroying something and getting away with it.

[HoreTore]

The London youth are cleaning up the mess:

http://v01s10.stream.fasthost.no:80/...flash_1000.mp4

It's only in Norwegian for the intro, don't worry.

[HoreTore]

That is one of the things, most of them think that they are just one more hoody in a crowd... they aren't on the whole marching around with their faces uncovered.

Trolls get a thrill out of making misery of other people... I've seen some of the footage on BBC.co.uk of a rioter calmly going up to a store and lighting some clothes on fire... it wasn't to steal anything... it was purely the thrill of destroying something and getting away with it.

On that note, can anyone of us honestly say that destroying stuff isn't fun? No, I don't mean destruction like this, due to our socialized* conscience, we will feel bad after destroying someone elses stuff. But give us something that wuldn't be a loss if it gets destroyed, will we not happily go about destroying it?

Like old cars headed for the junkyard; how many of those gets taken to a field and driven till the wheels fall off first?

My cousin bought an old house a year ago, and had to, among other things, take down a cuple of walls. How did he do it? He invited a few friends, who happily smashed it up with sledgehammer. Payment? Heck no, it was fun!




*socialized as in the social science term, not the political term

[Ignoramus]

Edit: Sorry, incorrect. Apologies.

[Adrian II]

That is one of the things, most of them think that they are just one more hoody in a crowd... they aren't on the whole marching around with their faces uncovered.

Have you seen any footage? The looters and rioters aren't covered at all. They don't care. They know London is awash with CCTV, they go about their 'business' regardless. They talk to journalists and each other on (mobile) camera and take pictures of themselves and their freinds in the act and put them on their Facebook accounts, knowing they may well be caught.

AII

[Furunculus]

one of britain's foremost strategists on the riots and their cause:

http://lindleyfrench.blogspot.com/20...s-burning.html

[PanzerJaeger]

After watching the paltry police response to these riots, I'm reminded of LA and thankful that we have the right to bear arms over here in the states. Not so much because these riots have been particularly deadly, but because I know when America's black underclass takes to the streets, it is invariably more violent, more extreme, and far more dangerous. Even as Britain's cities burn, the rioters are (unknowingly) displaying classic British civility.

[Adrian II]

one of britain's foremost strategists on the riots and their cause:

http://lindleyfrench.blogspot.com/20...s-burning.html

He'd better stick to strategy then. Everything he says is wrong. Starting with the ritual condemnation of the BBC. I've been watching the BBC for three days and I haven't heard a single journalist or guest excusing the looting.

And what is this nonsense about 'ethnic communities being at war'? If anything, what we see is one the one hand a racially mixed bag ofrioters and on the other racially mixed communities defending themselves against the looters. For every looter there are ten people defending their shops and streets, cleaning up, looking after the victims, blacks, whites, Asians and others working together. In case anyone didn't get the story about the Turks and Kurds defending their shops, they said they were 'defending everyone in our borough, Turks and non-Turks, whites and non-whites'. That's the true spirit of community and it's growing due to this episode, which is a good thing.

Some people just can't accept that it isn't about race or islam or migration or whatever. Lindley sounds like just another desk-top racist.

AII

[Furunculus]

funnily enough, he lives in the netherlands:

Breda, Netherlands
Julian Lindley-French is Eisenhower Professor of Defence Strategy at the Netherlands Defence Academy, Special Professor of Strategic Studies at the University of Leiden

[HoreTore]

One should never confuse trying to figure out why it happened and what caused it(because there's always a cause) with excusing the offenders. Unfortunately, some people have a thing for mixing the two.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Have you seen any footage? The looters and rioters aren't covered at all. They don't care. They know London is awash with CCTV, they go about their 'business' regardless. They talk to journalists and each other on (mobile) camera and take pictures of themselves and their freinds in the act and put them on their Facebook accounts, knowing they may well be caught.

One suspects that many are not intelligent enough to realise that they may be caught. In addition (as one little scroat from Manchester explained to Radio 4) they know that the worst punishment that will be meted out is an ASBO or a paltry fine.

After watching the paltry police response to these riots, I'm reminded of LA and thankful that we have the right to bear arms over here in the states. Not so much because these riots have been particularly deadly, but because I know when America's black underclass takes to the streets, it is invariably more violent, more extreme, and far more dangerous. Even as Britain's cities burn, the rioters are (unknowingly) displaying classic British civility.

Most of these young looters have easy access to firearms. The estates where they breed are thick with illegal guns. However, a lot of this looting is organised criminality and the gang bosses deploying the thugs are interested in profits from the loot gained. If there was genuine revolution in the air, one would expect rioters to be opening fire. In reality, these "unemployed" are supplementing their welfare income and supplying the criminal gangs with electronic goods for resale. Guns are bad for business.