Problem Factions/Rebels... A Solution??

[ahowl11]

Hey everyone,

I have been thinking alot lately.. Reading articles on how RTW is historically inaccurate, there has been one topic that has really annoyed me.. The fact that these factions:

Greek Cities
Gaul
Germania
Scythia
Britannia
Iberia
Numidia
and Now Illyria

NEVER EXISTED.. there never was a "Gaul kingdom" they were a bunch of tribes, clans, small kingdoms, loose alliances, and confederations..
Same can go for the other Barbarian factions listed above..

Also the "Greek Cities" never had a kingdom.. they were all independant or in leagues..

At first my thought was "oh well, we have to play with the cards dealt to us"...

BUT THEN today, while I was on a trip I was thinking..

EB and RS2 have a great "rebel" setup.. and I thought why can't we??

So check this out.. Instead of giving rebel settlements a huge stack of units we need to make them their own "sub-faction" similar to EB and RS2.

Now the problem here is on the strat map they would still look like rebels.. But, we separate them.. Brigands will be brigands, Pirates will be Pirates.. But you wont see a Roxolani army merge with a Bithynian army.. Instead you would see them treat each other as a completely different faction..

So all of the little kingdoms, city states and tribes will essentially be on their own..
We have:

Italian Rebel Culture with the Pitchfork Symbol
Barbarian Rebel Culture with the Three Connected Loops Symbol
The Hellenic Rebel Culture with The Pegasus symbol
The Eastern Rebel Culture with The Palm/Eye Symbol
The North African Rebel Culture with The Elephant
Another Barbarian Culture?? The Bug Symbol

So we have room to work with.. but now read carefully..

RS2 Did away with the Britons and essentially made them into another rebel faction..

Why cant we do that? If we can do that with the factions listed above it would be amazing.. making them all sub factions of an ultimate culture.. then we wouldn't have a unified Gaul or Greek Cities but instead the different Kingdoms and Tribes in reality..

I know we can do it.. It will take heavy scripting and coding but it can be done..
There are many possibilities with this idea... The Galatians, Pergamum, Parthia, Hasmonean Kingdom, and others can suddenly appear and be there own independant factions..

I believe it can be done.. It would work great with the AOR system and with the goal of unifying the germans, gauls etc..

We can also build off this with adding mini campaigns.. now wouldnt that be something?? Guys please dont write it off as it simply cant be done.. if there is proof of this idea being impossible i understand but from what i've seen this is possible.. it will just take hard work..

Please give me your thoughts/ideas on this

[Skull]

Good Idea,but it shoud be done in beta/final relese...

[Macedon1an]

I remind you that this is a game mod not a historical project.. so don't forget that the gameplay is most important... With losing playable barbarian factions we lose a lot, and playing a rebel campaign is the hardest thing in RTW (believe me... I tried it).
So why don't we instead make the factions represent one major tribe from them... Example: Gaul > Aedui or Arverni , The Britons could be the Iceni or Brigantes, Germania would be the Suebi, GCS > Sparta, Iberia > Lusitanians , as for Numidia they were a kingdom. We would give them 1-2 settlements, and the other towns will be rebel each acting as a different tribe.This is what EB made. Also, this opens the possibility of using a big map.

[Daco-Roman]

basicly what macedonian said

[Skull]

I remind you that this is a game mod not a historical project.. so don't forget that the gameplay is most important... With losing playable barbarian factions we lose a lot, and playing a rebel campaign is the hardest thing in RTW (believe me... I tried it).
So why don't we instead make the factions represent one major tribe from them... Example: Gaul > Aedui or Arverni , The Britons could be the Iceni or Brigantes, Germania would be the Suebi, GCS > Sparta, Iberia > Lusitanians , as for Numidia they were a kingdom. We would give them 1-2 settlements, and the other towns will be rebel each acting as a different tribe.This is what EB made. Also, this opens the possibility of using a big map.

Yeah...that is the thing...
But please don't make the map huge....please....
And yeah...rebel camping is a pain in the butt,but once I played one for a mod called eastern camping and it was realy fun...
And realy funny when a bandit army swaped near egyptian capital,and then I besuged and played the battle and killed the egyptian king....
Egypt lost and I got all arabia and egypt...but the place soon got steamrolled by seleucids...

[ahowl11]

well havnt you guys seen the multiple campaigns like in XGM? If you were gonna be the romans then my idea above should go into effect.. If you wanted to be barbarian.. a different campaign would be available.. you could start as any tribe/kingdom that you wanted and every other tribe and kingdom would be rebels.. we could script in a goal for unifying everybody:) i should of included this above haha

[Macedon1an]

We could have different provincial campaigns like unite the Gallic tribes, but there should be a main imperial campaign where you can take the barbarians into Egypt or the Numidians in Britain... and stuff like unite the German tribes are easily made in the Imperial Campaign as a victory condition for short campaigns.

[ahowl11]

thats true i like that

[medievaldude]

Illyria were loosely divided mulitple groups/nations or other words tribes. they were only two big enough tribes/nations that can be represented as a faction :S but Eleutheroi is fine as rome demands it

Numidia

jsut call them the tribes of Massylii :D

[eo9o]

I would like to play a EB game with a huge map. Imagine the possibility to have borders with Han's dynasty? Or confort then in the battlefield!?

[Skull]

I would like to play a EB game with a huge map. Imagine the possibility to have borders with Han's dynasty? Or confort then in the battlefield!?

Yeah that's rather awsome,but VERY hard to do...
There is a mod like that...but it's still to be made...

[Lord President of Gallifrey]

Provincial Campaigns would be a good idea. (Caesar's conquest of Gaul comes to mind, unless this campaign has been done before?)

[ahowl11]

this mod wont expand past vanilla map for now.. and yes im really thinking about the provincial campaigns as they add alot of history and its fun

[Skull]

Yeah,provincial campings are great
My suggestions:
- Caesar in Gaul
- The Die is cast {baisicly the scriptles prologe camping that has a large roman army against a rebel Italy{Pompe}
- Germanic expedition {Varus in Germania}
- Warrior Queen {buddica's rebelion}
- Something else...

[Macedon1an]

Yeah,provincial campings are great
My suggestions:
- Caesar in Gaul
- The Die is cast {baisicly the scriptles prologe camping that has a large roman army against a rebel Italy{Pompe}
- Germanic expedition {Varus in Germania}
- Warrior Queen {buddica's rebelion}
- Something else...

-Trajan in Dacia
-Hannibal in Italy
-Cimbri Invasion (we can use the horde option for this)

And if we can get a map of sub-Saharan east Africa:

-The Source of the Nile - This would be a lot of fun...

[ahowl11]

there is alot we can do guys.. lets wait to implement most of these until "after" beta as we have alot of work to do

[Skull]

there is alot we can do guys.. lets wait to implement most of these until "after" beta as we have alot of work to do

Yeah...
But we shoud definetly have someone to cut the map...
I hate "Provincial Campings" that have the same map as Imperial,but only some diffirent ownerships...

[Lord President of Gallifrey]

For representing Independent Kingdoms, I would (for now) agree with Macedonian's idea of smaller tribes should be powerful rebels.

I think your onto something though Ahowl, maybe if we have the Celtic/Barbarian/Hellenic rebel Culture in conjunction with regular factions we wil have our answer.

[ahowl11]

we will have to really experiment with it

[Magneto]

You could try to give the shadowing/shadowed_by ability to some of the barbarian factions. Like:

faction gauls, religious smith
shadowed_by germans
denari 5000
...
faction germans, balanced mao
shadowing gauls
denari 5000

Basically, If a gaul army revolts, it won´t be a rebel one, it will be a german one, if germany isn´t extinct.

[ahowl11]

thats strange... that would be weird haha

[Magneto]

thats strange... that would be weird haha

Why?

[ahowl11]

like why would you have germans replace gauls, in a rebellion?

[Magneto]

like why would you have germans replace gauls, in a rebellion?

That was just an example. And I think it would be quite logical: The army of one tribe changes his allegiances, because they think the other bunch of tribes got more strength and is more reliable. You could edit the text of the barbarian event of a rebellion to something that would explain it to the player, like:

"This Tribes stupid leaders betrayed us, to join a bunch of weak tribes! Those fools think we wouldn´t exakt revenge upon them!"

That would make a more dynamic tribe system.
You could also script a few things, like the departure of the Helvetii from their lands into gaul. I don´t think that would be very hard. You spawn an army of rebels with adequate units and leaders and send them per script to a city in gaul. The army will walk to this city, and besiege it. Of course, they can be attacked and exterminated before by the player or gaul ai. Some things like that would make a dynamic tribe system.

[ahowl11]

thats very interesting.. i like it.. do you have any modding skills?

[Magneto]

thats very interesting.. i like it.. do you have any modding skills?

I´m Primo. I could do the scripting.

[Skull]

That was just an example. And I think it would be quite logical: The army of one tribe changes his allegiances, because they think the other bunch of tribes got more strength and is more reliable. You could edit the text of the barbarian event of a rebellion to something that would explain it to the player, like:

"This Tribes stupid leaders betrayed us, to join a bunch of weak tribes! Those fools think we wouldn´t exakt revenge upon them!"

That would make a more dynamic tribe system.
You could also script a few things, like the departure of the Helvetii from their lands into gaul. I don´t think that would be very hard. You spawn an army of rebels with adequate units and leaders and send them per script to a city in gaul. The army will walk to this city, and besiege it. Of course, they can be attacked and exterminated before by the player or gaul ai. Some things like that would make a dynamic tribe system.

Sounds nice but will it slow the camping down?:-/

[Magneto]

Sounds nice but will it slow the camping down?:-/

Do you mean the expanding of the "barbarians"? Of course it will. But this is quite logical (and historically): A Nation never conquered europe in a few years. And it is not like you can´t do something like that for the other factions, too. You can also add in more historic events (and isn´t this mod called HISTORICAL rome total war?)

[Skull]

Do you mean the expanding of the "barbarians"? Of course it will. But this is quite logical (and historically): A Nation never conquered europe in a few years. And it is not like you can´t do something like that for the other factions, too. You can also add in more historic events (and isn´t this mod called HISTORICAL rome total war?)

I did not ment in gametime,I ment Lag.

[Magneto]

I did not ment in gametime,I ment Lag.

Of course not. If a few simple scripted armys would slow the game down, none Mod which is graphically changing the game would exist.
But if that would be your only problem :)