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Thread: David Hicks - Guantanamo Bay Detainee - A letter to his Father

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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Post David Hicks - Guantanamo Bay Detainee - A letter to his Father

    ''Dear Dad,

    ''If you receive this letter it is due to the goodness of somebody who I now feel I owe my life too. This letter is very important because it's the first and probably only time I will be able to tell you the truth of my situation.

    ''Before I start I want you to know that the negative things I am going to say about people has nothing to do with the MP's that are watching me. Some of them are marvellous people who have taken risks to help improve my day to day living. It's because of such people that I have kept my sanity and still have some strenght left.

    ''In the early days before I made it to Cuba I received some harsh treatment in transportation including mild beatings (about 4). One lasted for 10 hours I went to camp x-ray, camp delta and now Im in camp echo. I have allways cooperated with interrogaters. For two years they had control of my life in the camps. If you talk and just agree with what their saying they give you real food, books and other special privileges. If not they can make your life hell. Im [sic] angry these days at myself for being so weak during these last two years. But I've always been so desperate to get out and to try to live the best I can while I am here.''

    Hicks describes how, the year before, in 2003, the Americans asked him to sign a form, saying that if he did he would be moved to a better place and then within months he would be sent home.

    ''The form was a plea guilty form. It had al Qaida written all over it. It was a very bad form. Being so desperate (and weak) I didn't care.

    I just signed it,'' Hicks wrote.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/the-l...#ixzz1VcWVpcO8
    Does a confession have any legal standing if made under duress?

    Seems like in Guantanamo the MPs were doing the right thing. - So this could have been titled:
    "Military Police do the right thing"
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    Default Re: David Hicks - Guantanamo Bay Detainee - A letter to his Father

    Vitiate Man.

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    The glib replies, the same defeats


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    Default Re: David Hicks - Guantanamo Bay Detainee - A letter to his Father

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio View Post
    Does a confession have any legal standing if made under duress?

    Seems like in Guantanamo the MPs were doing the right thing. - So this could have been titled:
    "Military Police do the right thing"
    That makes him sound like an unfairly persecuted man who was wrongfully committed of crimes. The man was a terrorist fighter in Afghanistan and someone whom the terrorists paraded as one of their white converts.

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    smell the glove Senior Member Major Robert Dump's Avatar
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    Default Re: David Hicks - Guantanamo Bay Detainee - A letter to his Father

    Sounds like a typical plea bargain to me: take your time and risks by fighting the charges, or plead to something lesser in order to get out.

    Not very cool to hold him for so long before bringing him to "justice" but I find it hard to pity him because

    HE ROLLED WITH THE TALIBAN
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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: David Hicks - Guantanamo Bay Detainee - A letter to his Father

    I think the guy was an idiot. But I don't buy the idea that we should give up freedoms for a sense of security. I think we as an alliance acted like douche bags on his and we should learn from it. After all we managed to give the Nazi's speedy and fair trials. I'm pretty sure not every member of the SS was put on trial either.


    I can understand their might be intel of value from torture that could be useful within a very short window of capture.

    However does a confession have legal and/or moral force if it is made under duress?
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: David Hicks - Guantanamo Bay Detainee - A letter to his Father

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump View Post
    HE ROLLED WITH THE TALIBAN
    Who says? Where in this case does the truth stop and the lie start? It's just a mess and heaven knows it isn't the only Guantanamo case that is a mess. That's what happens when you treat prisoners of war as ipso facto war criminals and treat them in ways that are in clear breach of war conventions as well common decency.

    Nobody in the whole wide world believes anything that comes out of Guantanamo. Or anything the US authorities say about Guantanamo. People just shrug and point at their foreheads.

    AII
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    smell the glove Senior Member Major Robert Dump's Avatar
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    Default Re: David Hicks - Guantanamo Bay Detainee - A letter to his Father

    Well for starters, he kind of admits it to the letter that he was a jihadist. The journalist also alludes that he has spoken with the subject. That's number one.

    And number two is that the world was very well aware of who the Taliban was and what they were doing well before 9/11, so for this guy to knowingly hang out with them makes it very hard for me to be sympathetic.

    I have always been disapproving of these detainment facilites and their methods, but there are far more heart wrenching stories than the one of the westerner who willingly went and joined hands with the jihadists.

    ***check the bottom of the page for the politcal dealings that were behind this conviction**
    Last edited by Major Robert Dump; 08-21-2011 at 13:25.
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    Default Re: David Hicks - Guantanamo Bay Detainee - A letter to his Father

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II View Post
    Nobody in the whole wide world believes anything that comes out of Guantanamo. Or anything the US authorities say about Guantanamo. People just shrug and point at their foreheads.

    AII
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    Default Re: David Hicks - Guantanamo Bay Detainee - A letter to his Father

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump View Post
    Well for starters, he kind of admits it to the letter that he was a jihadist.
    Uh, where? I've read the artical and I cant find anything about him saying he was a jihadist beyond being tortured into signing a confession, and realy being tortured kinda renders the confession moot. Maybe I missed something but I dont see it.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 08-21-2011 at 18:56.
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    Default Re: David Hicks - Guantanamo Bay Detainee - A letter to his Father

    Here is some information.

    Hicks began studying the Koran during his time in the Northern Territory.[20] In 1999, Hicks travelled to Albania, joining the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), a militant organisation of ethnic Albanians fighting against Serbian forces in the Kosovo War, for two months.[22] Hicks states in his autobiography that during this period he did not engage in any actual hostilities nor enter Kosovan territory.[citation needed] Upon return to Australia, Hicks applied to join the Australian Army but was rejected due to his low level of formal education.[19] Hicks then converted to Islam,[2] and began studying Wahhabism at a mosque in Gilles Plains, a suburb north of Adelaide. The president of the Islamic society of South Australia, Wali Hanifi, described Hicks as having "some interest in military things", and that "after personal experience and research, that Islam was the answer".[18] In 2010, Hicks explained his motivation to convert to Islam:


    My motivation was not a religious search for spirituality; it was more a search for somewhere to belong and to be with people who shared my interest in world affairs. In my youth I was impulsive. Unfortunately, many of my decisions of that time are a reflection of that trait.[23]

    He renounced his faith during the earlier years of his detention at Guantánamo.[24][25] In June 2006, Moazzam Begg, a British man who had also been held at Guantanamo Bay but was released in 2005, claimed in his book Enemy Combatant: A British Muslim's Journey to Guantanamo and Back that Hicks had abandoned his Islamic beliefs, and had been denounced by a fellow inmate, Uthman al-Harbi, for his lack of observance.[9] This has also been confirmed by his military lawyer, Major Michael Mori. However, he declined to say why Hicks was no longer a Muslim, saying it was a personal issue for David Hicks.[26]

    [edit] Lashkar-e-Taiba

    On 11 November 1999, Hicks travelled to Pakistan to study Islam[21][27] and began training with Lashkar-e-Taiba in early 2000.[28][29] In the U.S. Military Commission charges presented in 2004, the U.S. accused Hicks of training at the Mosqua Aqsa camp in Pakistan, after which he "travelled to a border region between Pakistan-controlled Kashmir and Indian-controlled Kashmir, where he engaged in hostile action against Indian forces."[13]

    In a March 2000 letter to his family, Hicks wrote:


    don't ask what's happened, I can't be bothered explaining the outcome of these strange events has put me in Pakistan-Kashmir in a training camp. Three months training. After which it is my decision whether to cross the line of control into Indian occupied Kashmir.

    In another letter on 10 August 2000, Hicks wrote from Kashmir claiming to have been a guest of Pakistan's army for two weeks at the front in the "controlled war" with India:


    I got to fire hundreds of bullets. Most Muslim countries impose hanging for civilians arming themselves for conflict. There are not many countries in the world where a tourist, according to his visa, can go to stay with the army and shoot across the border at its enemy, legally.[30]

    During this period, Hicks kept a notebook to document his training in weapon use, explosives, and military tactics, in which he wrote that guerilla warfare involved "sacrifice for Allah". He took extensive notes on, and made sketches of, various weaponry mechanisms and attack strategies (including Heckler & Koch submachine guns, the M16 assault rifle, RPG-7 grenade launcher, anti-tank rockets, and VIP security infiltration).[31] Letters to his family detailed his training:


    I learnt about weapons such as ballistic missiles, surface to surface and shoulder fired missiles, anti aircraft and anti-tank rockets, rapid fire heavy and light machine guns, pistols, AK47s, mines and explosives. After three months everybody leaves capable and war-ready being able to use all of these weapons capably and responsibly. I am now very well trained for jihad in weapons some serious like anti-aircraft missiles.[32]

    In January 2001, Hicks was provided with funding and an introductory letter from Lashkar-e-Taiba. He then travelled to Afghanistan to attend training.[13] According to Hicks' autobiography Guantanamo: My Journey, he was unfamiliar with the name Al-Qaeda until after his detainment in Guantanamo Bay.[citation needed]

    [edit] Afghanistan

    Upon arrival in Afghanistan, Hicks allegedly went to an al-Qaeda guest house where he met Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, a high ranking al Qaeda member. He turned over his passport and indicated to them that he would use the alias "Muhammad Dawood."[13]

    Hicks allegedly "attended a number of al-Qaeda training courses at various camps around Afghanistan, learning guerilla warfare, weapons training, including landmines, kidnapping techniques and assassination methods."[29] He also allegedly participated "in an advanced course on surveillance, in which he conducted surveillance of the U.S. and British embassies in Kabul, Afghanistan."[29] However, Hicks strongly denies that he had any involvement with al-Qaeda, nor that he knew the camp had any al-Qaeda links. According to Hicks, he had not even heard of the organisation until he was taken to Cuba.


    There were three or four camps under the name of Camp Farouk at that time in Afghanistan. I attended the open mainstream camp, not terrorist camps. I would not have been there if there was any suggestion of terrorist activity or the targeting of civilians. How would a white boy new to Islam, not understanding local customs or languages, largely uneducated in the ways of the world, get access to such supposedly secret camps planning acts of terror? The camps I attended were not al-Qaeda. I did not hear about such an organisation until my arrival in Guantanamo Bay.[33]

    On one occasion when al-Qaeda founder Osama bin Laden visited an Afghan camp, the US Defence Department alleges[29] Hicks questioned bin Laden about the lack of English in training material and subsequently "began to translate the training camp materials from Arabic to English". Hicks denies this and also denies having had the prerequisite language proficiency.[citation needed] Hicks wrote home that he had met Osama bin Laden 20 times. He later, however, told investigators he had exaggerated, that he had seen bin Laden about eight times and spoken to him only once.


    There are a lot of Muslims who want to meet Osama Bin Laden but after being a Muslim for 16 months I get to meet him.[32]

    Prosecutors also allege Hicks was interviewed by Muhammad Atef, an al-Qaeda military commander, about his background and "the travel habits of Australians".[34] In a memoir that was later repudiated by its author, Guantanamo detainee Feroz Abbasi claimed Hicks was "Al-Qaedah's 24 [carat] Golden Boy" and "obviously the favourite recruit" of their al-Qaeda trainers during exercises at the al-Farouq camp near Kandahar. The memoir made a number of claims, including that Hicks was teamed in the training camp with Filipino recruits from the Moro Islamic Liberation Front and that, during internment in Camp X-Ray, Hicks allegedly described his desire to "go back to Australia and rob and kill Jews ... crash a plane into a building" and to "go out with that last big adrenaline rush."[35]

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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: David Hicks - Guantanamo Bay Detainee - A letter to his Father

    The political part in Australia... he was released far later then the British prisoners... and there was a gag order that he couldn't speak until after the election... now considering his background, and it was already well documented... why they need to gag him?

    "Hicks wrote home that he had met Osama bin Laden 20 times. He later, however, told investigators he had exaggerated, that he had seen bin Laden about eight times and spoken to him only once."

    Eight times is a lot. Looks like the 3:1 ratio for exagerating the number of partners also applies to meeting heads of groups... Something to do with basic male ego drives and the need to over count head.

    More seriously. If they had the evidence, why not just put it through a legitmate court. And why pursue the foot troops in this war when there was far more powerful people to pursue including money brockers.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
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    Default Re: David Hicks - Guantanamo Bay Detainee - A letter to his Father

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio View Post
    The political part in Australia... he was released far later then the British prisoners... and there was a gag order that he couldn't speak until after the election... now considering his background, and it was already well documented... why they need to gag him?

    "Hicks wrote home that he had met Osama bin Laden 20 times. He later, however, told investigators he had exaggerated, that he had seen bin Laden about eight times and spoken to him only once."

    Eight times is a lot. Looks like the 3:1 ratio for exagerating the number of partners also applies to meeting heads of groups... Something to do with basic male ego drives and the need to over count head.

    More seriously. If they had the evidence, why not just put it through a legitmate court. And why pursue the foot troops in this war when there was far more powerful people to pursue including money brockers.
    More seriously, this guy is clearly a twit? Telling his Australian family he's traing to be a Muhajideen fighting against the religious enemies of Islam?

    So he was with the Taliban, at a time when the Taliban was effectively at war with Australia... he should have bee sent home and tried for treason, then probably not hanged, though removing this idiot from the gene pool would not be a bad thing.

    I'm sorry buy come on, why the sympathy? Because Gitmo is a nasty place? It's probably better than what would have happened if he'd been caught in the SS during WWII, or as a French Officer by the British during the Napoleonic Wars.
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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: David Hicks - Guantanamo Bay Detainee - A letter to his Father

    Taliban were not at war with Australia when he joined them.

    I have no problem with a fair trial, for crimes committed and an outcome which could include the death penalty.

    But I do believe it is more important to follow our own rules of law. Which include innocent until proven guilty, right to a fair trial, a right to a quickly delivered trial, the right to not be charged with crimes in retrospect, the right to not be tortured.

    The only thing he was charged with
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    Default Re: David Hicks - Guantanamo Bay Detainee - A letter to his Father

    Guantanemo Detention has proven to be a boondoggle.

    Perhaps will know better next time. These prisoners haven't been worth it.
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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: David Hicks - Guantanamo Bay Detainee - A letter to his Father

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    Because Gitmo is a nasty place? It's probably better than what would have happened if he'd been caught in the SS during WWII [...]
    Do you realise what you just wrote? There is no reason for complaint since the US army compares favourably to the SS? Is that the benchmark these days?

    AII
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    Default Re: David Hicks - Guantanamo Bay Detainee - A letter to his Father

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio View Post
    Taliban were not at war with Australia when he joined them.

    I have no problem with a fair trial, for crimes committed and an outcome which could include the death penalty.

    But I do believe it is more important to follow our own rules of law. Which include innocent until proven guilty, right to a fair trial, a right to a quickly delivered trial, the right to not be charged with crimes in retrospect, the right to not be tortured.

    The only thing he was charged with
    Did he remain with the Taliban after NATO invaved?

    Also, he met Bin Laden who was already a declared enemy of the West and had attacked NATO countries.

    Is Australia not a close ally of NATO?
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    Default Re: David Hicks - Guantanamo Bay Detainee - A letter to his Father

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II View Post
    Do you realise what you just wrote? There is no reason for complaint since the US army compares favourably to the SS? Is that the benchmark these days?

    AII
    Or by the taliban or al-Qaeda or Russia or china or n.korea, or america in ww2.....

    traiters to ones own country or culture are not treated favorable.

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    Default Re: David Hicks - Guantanamo Bay Detainee - A letter to his Father

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II View Post
    Do you realise what you just wrote? There is no reason for complaint since the US army compares favourably to the SS? Is that the benchmark these days?

    AII
    Maybe I wasn't clear:

    "It's probably better than what would have happened if he'd been caught in the SS during WWII" should perhaps have had, "caught fightin in the SS as an Australian" as a clarification.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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    Default Re: David Hicks - Guantanamo Bay Detainee - A letter to his Father

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio View Post
    Taliban were not at war with Australia when he joined them.

    I have no problem with a fair trial, for crimes committed and an outcome which could include the death penalty.

    But I do believe it is more important to follow our own rules of law. Which include innocent until proven guilty, right to a fair trial, a right to a quickly delivered trial, the right to not be charged with crimes in retrospect, the right to not be tortured.

    The only thing he was charged with
    Purely semantics as you know. "Taliban were not at war with Austrailia when he joined them."

    so if i joined the Japanese before Pearl Harbor and continued to fight for them I wouldn't be a traitor?

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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: David Hicks - Guantanamo Bay Detainee - A letter to his Father

    I'm fine with him being charged as such and sent to prison (death penalty no longer exists in Australia).

    As long as we follow the rules of law & the laws existed at the time of his crime.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
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    Default Re: David Hicks - Guantanamo Bay Detainee - A letter to his Father

    You call it treason, but in your heart of hearts, you ache for vengeance: vengeance for the crime of apostasy. And in this regard are the hearts of men united.

    In this cocoon of false righteousness, it is possible to put aside ideals of human and civil rights. Hypocrisy becomes your truth.
    Vitiate Man.

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: David Hicks - Guantanamo Bay Detainee - A letter to his Father

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    Maybe I wasn't clear:

    "It's probably better than what would have happened if he'd been caught in the SS during WWII" should perhaps have had, "caught fightin in the SS as an Australian" as a clarification.
    Oh, ok.

    AII
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    Default Re: David Hicks - Guantanamo Bay Detainee - A letter to his Father

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    You call it treason, but in your heart of hearts, you ache for vengeance: vengeance for the crime of apostasy. And in this regard are the hearts of men united.

    In this cocoon of false righteousness, it is possible to put aside ideals of human and civil rights. Hypocrisy becomes your truth.
    No, I just want him shot.

    Seriously though, while I'm not arguing his treatment was entirely right, particulary the torture, the fact remains that he was in effect an enemy combatant, he can therefore remain in gaol until such time as he is either no longer deemed a threat or hostilities come to an end. A belief that his treatment was not entirely legal does not, gowever, necessitate any sympathy on my part.

    He, like the others, opposed his native country in a time of war - he should be tried for Treason:

    (e) engages in conduct that assists by any means whatever, with intent to assist, an enemy:
    (i) at war with the Commonwealth, whether or not the existence of a state of war has been declared; and
    (ii) specified by Proclamation made for the purpose of this paragraph to be an enemy at war with the Commonwealth;...
    Source, wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason#Australia

    I assume "the Commonwealth" is the Commonwealth of Australia, still the fact remains... Treason.

    As I am not a cruel man I would not Attain him as well.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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    Default Re: David Hicks - Guantanamo Bay Detainee - A letter to his Father

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    You call it treason, but in your heart of hearts, you ache for vengeance: vengeance for the crime of apostasy. And in this regard are the hearts of men united.

    In this cocoon of false righteousness, it is possible to put aside ideals of human and civil rights. Hypocrisy becomes your truth.
    No I want him dead for being a traitor and criminal against humanity. I would string him up myself with zero qualms.

  25. #25

    Default Re: David Hicks - Guantanamo Bay Detainee - A letter to his Father

    I always smile to see the frailty of morality demonstrated.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


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    Default Re: David Hicks - Guantanamo Bay Detainee - A letter to his Father

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    I always smile to see the frailty of morality demonstrated.
    You should weep.

    The point remains, he should be prosecuted for Treason (his offence) and punished to the fullest extent of the law, the conditions of his imprisonment do not mitigate against the severity of his crime.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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  27. #27

    Default Re: David Hicks - Guantanamo Bay Detainee - A letter to his Father

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio View Post
    After all we managed to give the Nazi's speedy and fair trials. I'm pretty sure not every member of the SS was put on trial either.
    Gitmo has become so toxic that it is almost not even worth engaging in a discussion over. The faithful will always see it as the ultimate evil, and that's that. I did want to make a few points about the WW2 comparison.

    First, the fact that the Second World War had a beginning and a conclusion renders any comparison rather moot. The Allied powers actually operated in much the same way they have during the current conflict. Enemy combatants were held in prison camps without trial until the end of hostilities, after which they were processed dependent on rank. Unfortunately, NATO cannot wrap the War on Terror up and put a bow on it as the Allies did in Germany in '45. Each time a prisoner is released in the current conflict, the military has to contend with the very real possibility of recidivism.

    Second, during the Second World War, it was generally relatively easy for the Allies to discern the 'big fish' from the small. A general wore the uniform of a general and a private wore the uniform of a private. Again, NATO doesn't have it so easy in its fight against a decentralized and clandestine terrorist network. It takes time, sometimes a lot of time, to figure out who's who - especially when prisoners have been trained to lie, deceive, and confuse their captors at every occasion. Mr. Hicks was not a confused 'white boy' lost in Afghanistan. He wasn't even a Pashtun sympathizer seeking an Islamic paradise in Afghanistan, as some other Westerners who were caught up in the invasion apparently were. He trained with Al Qaeda and professed internationalist Islamist intentions. The man met OBL eight times by his own admission, and possibly many more. Was he a 'big fish'? No. However, considering the manner in which OBL was eliminated (extracting information from and following the 'little fish'), I can see why he was kept around, and six years honestly doesn't seem particularly egregious. Some Germans captured early in the Second World War were kept for about the same period of time.

    Finally, and this one always springs to my mind when the screamers scream about how we're sacrificing our values for security, German soldiers thought to be concealing valuable information were mercilessly, relentlessly, and savagely tortured throughout the Second World War by Allied forces in secret prisons. Somehow, society survived.

  28. #28
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: David Hicks - Guantanamo Bay Detainee - A letter to his Father

    The question is then why hasn't he been tried?

    The Australian government of the day imprisoned him without a trial & they gagged him talking to the media for a year (until after the 2007 election). The current government (which was in opposition in 2007) is going to block any proceeds from his book being paid to him as they are proceeds of crime.

    But neither government has actually taken him to court. Not for treason or any other lessor crime.

    So, that does make us ask why?

    And at what point do we expect that we are automatically guilty without trial?

    =][=
    BTW did every Confederate soldier get executed post the Civil war as traitors?
    Did every German solider, officer, SS solider or officer, or general or Nazi leader get executed post WWII?

    Sure we could execute every POW after a trial. It would make it cheaper and easier this time around to deal with them. It does however make the next battle a tad more difficult when every enemy fights to the death... basic Sun Tzu 101 you always give your enemy a way out, and you want to minimise fighting and maximise winning... make it as easy and palatable to surrender as possible.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
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    The rest is either as average as advertised or, in the case of the missionary, disappointing.

  29. #29

    Default Re: David Hicks - Guantanamo Bay Detainee - A letter to his Father

    If I wanted to spend time defending someone I'd pick someone else.

  30. #30

    Default Re: David Hicks - Guantanamo Bay Detainee - A letter to his Father

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio View Post
    And at what point do we expect that we are automatically guilty without trial?
    If we're operating based on previous conflicts, it's not really an innocent/guilty situation. He was a low level fighter caught on the battlefield and held in a prison camp and later released after it was decided he was no longer a threat. Not sure why the government would try to block the proceeds from his book, though. Once released, he should be free to move on. I guess that's where the definition of what he actually was gets murky - enemy soldier or terrorist?

    This conflict is very tricky - in many ways, it is far more difficult to prosecute than past wars between nation states. That's why I'm willing to extend some slack to Allied governments in their efforts to deal with these people. It's imperfect and it's messy, but it is ultimately aimed at keeping us safe.

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