So how do *you* learn a language?

[frogbeastegg]

Don't think it's J'ai. I may be wrong but how I remember (being 2-3 years ago I had french class) it's: Je parle un peu (no t) Francais. Don't know about the "de" before francais but I believe it's not d' since the next word starts with an "f".

Yes, that looks considerably closer to what I meant. I really do have no ability to write in French

The dictionary says that J'ai means I have and Je is just I. So I suppose my version works in a mangled, literal translation from English kind of way. "I have speak a bit of French."

The whole mass of variations on 'I, you, he, she, we, the' gave me such a headache at school. I could never completely grasp which version worked when and how. Polite, informal, masculine, feminine, past, present, future ... Tu and vous in the present tense was the only part I felt I had grasped with any degree of firmness.

You do realise that he's trying to hook you up with Peasant Phil, not that he shouldn't of course

Using his efforts for a bit of practice means that they aren't entirely wasted

[Fragony]

There is a desrinction, you either say 'tu' or 'vous', we also have it in Dutch. It is how you adress someone. Young or old, young 'tu' and old 'vous'

Go to France, much despite of what everyone says, the French are really nice

[Arjos]

I don't know if it's an age related form, always seen it as a formal vs cordial choice...

[frogbeastegg]

I was taught that it is polite versus informal. Tu is for friends, vous is for everyone else.

I enjoyed my visit to Paris during my teenage years. It is one of only two large cities which I did not hate. The other is Edinburgh, for similar reasons. Nice and clean, spacious, plenty of things which interested me, a good sense of history, and the people were pleasant. Presently I cannot afford a holiday, nor will I be able to in the near future.

[Arjos]

Yes as you said it, I was in "advanced" and forgot Fragony's order :P

[Fragony]

I don't know if it's an age related form, always seen it as a formal vs cordial choice...

No it really isn't, it's politeness. In English there is no such thing, but in Dutch it's jij or u, in German it is du or sie. Iin French tu or vous

[Drunk Clown]

Yeah, you weirdos always use you.

[Peasant Phill]

Words are easy to learn, they're just a dictionary away. It's the grammar with all those exceptions. wait until you get to the subjonctif.
Oh and trying to assimilate the right accent. I talk with french people every day and I still can't manage the rolling R.

Let's see, again without any kind of aid ... Yes, Phill [something] a woman. And your French is very good. You are a very good cook as well? Additionally, you are intelligent and gentle. And the Belgian is not [something], and outer [something] [live/house?]. It's perfect! [Something] the proposal.

How did I do?

Well enough. You get the gist of the sentences.

n'a plus = doesn't have anymore. ne+verb+plus = not ... anymore (and than 'ne' is shortened because it is followed by a vowel or a soundless h)
son = his (mon/ma/mes, ton/ta/tes, son/sa/ses, ...)
loin = far (away) => cen'est pas si loin = it isn't that far
en outre = besides
habituer = living somewhere
l'ouest = the west
Il n'ose pas proposer = he doesn't dare to propose (probably not the best word) it.

Using his efforts for a bit of practice means that they aren't entirely wasted

Et pour moi, ce n'est que bénificiel. Il me faut d'execice aussi.

Oh and I got the best line when your talking to a french speaker and you want to make clear that your french isn't that good:
Excuser moi, mais je parle le français comme une vache espagnole.

[Drunk Clown]

Just say: "Voulez vous coucher avec moi?" Every time you talk to a Frenchman .
Then it's certainly clear you suck at the language. Believe me it works, I did it numeral (damn, is numeral correct?) times. And it "breaks" the ice.

[Moros]

Was oser actually the best word to use, I wasn't really sure myself? Je suis faible en langues. Surtout le grammaire. Moi, je pense que l'orthographe en français n'est pas facile. Tous ces -e, es au fin des mots et autres choses comme ça. Je vraiment manque la sens de la méticulosité.

[Peasant Phill]

As far as I know, there was nothing wrong with the use of 'oser' in that sentence.

I'm still expecting Louis to post in this thread and put all us posers in our place.

[frogbeastegg]

Someone stole the French copies of Asterix from my county's library system! Gah! None are left to borrow. The current supplier's catalogue doesn't have them available for purchase so they can't replace them. Double gah! Remaining choices include such easy works as an unabridged translation of 'War & Peace', a book which is hard going in English thanks to all of the Russian names, and Les Miserables. Triple gah! I need something at a simpler level than that to begin with.

After three days of listening to RFI I am noticing that for the first five or ten minutes it's so much speedy gabble with the odd word I can pick out. Suddenly it all seems to slow down and I can tell where all the individual words are, and make sense of a lot more. I do dislike their sport commentator - he talks twice as quickly as everyone else!

Words are easy to learn, they're just a dictionary away.

In that case I envy you. I always struggle to learn words that way.

Time for more translation without a dictionary. I'm finding it stimulates the memory, although I can't say where most of this comes from because my education certainly didn't go anywhere near this kind of usage and vocabulary, obsessed as it was with phoning hotels to ask for a room and ordering a roast chicken dinner. (Why was it always roast chicken?)

Et pour moi, ce n'est que bénificiel. Il me faut d'execice aussi.

And for me, it's beneficial. I could also use the practice. (I'm tempted to make that a negative because of the n'est which I recall my French teacher endlessly going on about as being paired with pas to turn something into a negative. N'est [word/concept] pas.)

Excuser moi, mais je parle le français comme une vache espagnole.

This one strongly tempts me to break out the dictionary because surely it isn't

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Excuse me, I speak French like a Spanish cow.

Just say: "Voulez vous coucher avec moi?" Every time you talk to a Frenchman.

I don't intend to ask random strangers to sleep with me, thanks.

Je suis faible en langues. Surtout le grammaire. Moi, je pense que l'orthographe en français n'est pas facile. Tous ces -e, es au fin des mots et autres choses comme ça. Je vraiment manque la sens de la méticulosité.

That's a tough one. I am [something] languages. Too much(?) grammar. Me, I think [something] writing(?) in French is not easy. [no idea at all!] also choices(?) begin(?!). It's true [something] without being meticulous(?).

[Jakkal]

Dear Frogbeastegg,

Merci pour l'excellent travail et le dévouement dont vous avez fait preuve lors de la création de vos différents guides pour la série TW. Vos guides, bien que découvert récemment, sont devenus une source d'information incontournable tout en étant un réel plaisir à lire. Dans cet ordre d'idée, si je puis vous être d'une quelconque utilité dans votre présente quête, ce sera avec honneur et humilité qu'il me fera plaisir de vous aider. La langue de Molière est belle et riche mais aussi complexe. Les Misérables comme livre d'apprentissage est un projet ambitieux, me rappelant mes propres tentatives d'apprendre l'anglais via Romance of the three kingdoms puisque j'étais un fan de la série. En ce qui concerne la prononciation plusieurs sites offrent des programmes qui vous permettront de pratiquer cet aspect, mais rien ne vaut la discussion mano to mano pour obtenir une rétroaction efficace et immédiate.

[Drunk Clown]

Choses are things.

[Moros]

And for me, it's beneficial. I could also use the practice. (I'm tempted to make that a negative because of the n'est which I recall my French teacher endlessly going on about as being paired with pas to turn something into a negative. N'est [word/concept] pas.)

Ne .... pas is indeed not. Ne indeed signals a denial/negative. But the real meaning is always added by the word that follows it.
An other example is ne .... plus. Plus however makes it mean not anymore. There are quite few of these constructions possible.
Ne ... que however means. Anything but/only... So n'est que béneficiel. Means It's anything but beneficial.

See here for a list: http://french.about.com/od/grammar/a...negative_2.htm

Il faut often followed by "que" and another sentence, means I have to. For example Il faut que je parte. Which means I have to go.

Hence the translation is: And for me, it's only beneficial. I have to excercise [it] as well.

This one strongly tempts me to break out the dictionary because surely it isn't

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Excuse me, I speak French like a Spanish cow.

I don't intend to ask random strangers to sleep with me, thanks.

Quite correct.

That's a tough one. I am [something] languages. Too much(?) grammar. Me, I think [something] writing(?) in French is not easy. [no idea at all!] also choices(?) begin(?!). It's true [something] without being meticulous(?).

"être faible en quelque chose" or "être fort en quelque chose" litterally means being weak (hence bad) at, being strong (hence good) at something. For example: Newton était fort en maths. (était is the simple past of être). Surtout means especially. L'orthographe means spelling. Tous ces means all those. Ce/Cette means that. Cette of course is used for feminine words. When plural an 's' is added at the end of both. Choses is things/stuff. Comme means (a)like. For example: Il a le nez comme une fraise. Litt. means He's got a nose like a strawberry. Comme ça means like that. C'est vrai means it's true. Adding -ment makes it an adverb so c'est vraiment..., means it truely/really is. So Je vraiment manque... Means: I really miss/don't have ...

@Jakkal: you're not really making it easy for her.

[frogbeastegg]

Dear Frogbeastegg,

Merci pour l'excellent travail et le dévouement dont vous avez fait preuve lors de la création de vos différents guides pour la série TW. Vos guides, bien que découvert récemment, sont devenus une source d'information incontournable tout en étant un réel plaisir à lire. Dans cet ordre d'idée, si je puis vous être d'une quelconque utilité dans votre présente quête, ce sera avec honneur et humilité qu'il me fera plaisir de vous aider. La langue de Molière est belle et riche mais aussi complexe. Les Misérables comme livre d'apprentissage est un projet ambitieux, me rappelant mes propres tentatives d'apprendre l'anglais via Romance of the three kingdoms puisque j'étais un fan de la série. En ce qui concerne la prononciation plusieurs sites offrent des programmes qui vous permettront de pratiquer cet aspect, mais rien ne vaut la discussion mano to mano pour obtenir une rétroaction efficace et immediate.

First, a translation without aid. I have left this quite literal instead of cleaning it up so it's grammatically correct in English.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Thank you for the excellent work and [something] of your different TW series guides. Your guides, good [something], are [something] a source of information [something] and a real pleasure to read. [quite a bit I don't know here] in your present quest, [something] honour and [humble?] [something] pleasure to help you. The language of Moliere is beautiful and rich but also complex. Les Miserables is a book [something] and an ambitious project, [something] English via The Romance of the Three Kingdoms [something] a fan of that series. [And on?] concerning the pronunciation lots of sites offer programs which you [something] and practice that aspect, [something] discuss man to man to obtain a reaction [effective?] and immediate.

Here's a second attempt made with the aid of a dictionary and a tiny bit of google translate on two areas where I was struggling to find understanding. I have cleaned the final text up a bit to make it less literal. It took me half an hour but I'm pleased with the result. Hopefully it's not too inaccurate.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Thank you for the excellent work and commitment of your different TW series guides. Your guides, good and recently discovered [alternative: open-handed, as in 'for free'], have become a source of information considered essential anything in [all I can find for etant is a reference to 'sprawling'] and a true pleasure to read. If I can be of any assistance in your present quest, it would be my pleasure [honour?] to help. The language of Moliere is beautiful and rich but also complex. Les Miserables is an ambitious book to learn with, remembering my attempts to learn English with The Romance of the Three Kingdoms as I was a fan of the series. For pronunciation lots of sites offer programs with which you can practise, but nothing is better than speaking man to man to obtain effective and immediate feedback.

J'adore la trois royaume! J'ai aime la jouer d'ordinateur 'Dynasty Warriors 3' pour la Playstation 2. J'ai lire la livre plus tard. J'ai aime Liu Bei. Il est un homme gentile et honneur, et tres persistante. Lu Bu est formidable! Il est tres forte a guerre.

I needed a dictionary for honour, kingdoms, persistent, later and formidable. Should anyone wish to correct the spelling and grammar, please go ahead. If I could grasp the necessary words I would have said "I was first introduced to it by the computer game 'Dynasty Warriors 3' on the Playstation 2" instead of the "I liked". When I started this thread I couldn't have managed to write half of what I just did.

I shall send you a PM.

[frogbeastegg]

Another post which sneaked in!

Ne .... pas is indeed not. Ne indeed signals a denial/negative. But the real meaning is always added by the word that follows it.
An other example is ne .... plus. Plus however makes it mean not anymore. There are quite few of these constructions possible.
Ne ... que however means. Anything but/only... So n'est que béneficiel. Means It's anything but beneficial.

See here for a list: http://french.about.com/od/grammar/a...negative_2.htm

Il faut often followed by "que" and another sentence, means I have to. For example Il faut que je parte. Which means I have to go.

Hence the translation is: And for me, it's only beneficial. I have to excercise [it] as well.

I see. I need to work with the concept to understand it better, but it's nice to know my current basic idea is not too far from the mark.

Ne ... plus/pas/que should be helpful if I can learn to apply them. When combined with basic words they open up a new range of concepts. It's a step away from being stuck with like, love, and hate, as I am at the moment.

Quite correct.

That's almost as good as RFI and their cretins Americans dans Fox News (spelling and grammar?)!

"être faible en quelque chose" or "être fort en quelque chose" litterally means being weak (hence bad) at, being strong (hence good) at something. For example: Newton était fort en maths. (était is the simple past of être). Surtout means especially. L'orthographe means spelling. Tous ces means all those. Ce/Cette means that. Cette of course is used for feminine words. When plural an 's' is added at the end of both. Choses is things/stuff. Comme means (a)like. For example: Il a le nez comme une fraise. Litt. means He's got a nose like a strawberry. Comme ça means like that. C'est vrai means it's true. Adding -ment makes it an adverb so c'est vraiment..., means it truely/really is. So Je vraiment manque... Means: I really miss/don't have ...

Ah, so that's the word I have been trying to remember for ages! I was taught certain words in pairs. I have remembered forte without problem. I could not remember what went with it to make weak/strong.

Yes ... yes, most of that makes sense. It's the different tenses and word modifications which are tripping me up so badly, when combined with unfamiliar words. That's not unexpected. When it is broken down like that it does make sense.

Thank you

[Tellos Athenaios]

Well here is how I rendered Jakkal fairly literally in English (this is not an attempt at translating it into proper English, more at something which you can see how the French works without reading the French):

Thanks for the excellent work and the commitment of which [dont] you have given [vous avez fait] proof [preuve] (ever) since [lors] the creation of your various guides for the TW series. Your guides, even though [bien que, literally “good as”] recently discovered (i.e. even though I only discovered them recently), have (already) become [sont devenues] an incomparable source of information while [tout en, literally: all the while] being a real pleasure to read. In this vein [dans cet ordre d'idée], if I can be of any use to you at all [any at all comes from: de quelconque] during [dans] your current effort [quête, literally quest/search] it will be with honour and humility that [qu'] it will be my pleasure [il fera ma plaisir] to help you. The language of Molière is beautiful and rich, but also complex. Les Misérables as learning book reminds me of [me rappelant] my own attempts to learn [d'apprendre] English via Romance of the three Kingdoms since I was a fan of the series. Where it concerns [en ce qui concerne] the pronunciation, lots of sites offer programs which [qui] allow you to practice this aspect, but nothing [rien] beats (surpasses) [vauts] a discussion [la discussion, literally the discussion but English simply doesn't work that way] “mano a mano” for obtaining effective and immediate feedback.

[Beskar]

Date some one who speaks the language.

(More of a self-joke, I have barely passable Greek language skills which I learnt when I was dating a Greek girl. )

[Peasant Phill]

J'adore la trois royaume! J'ai aime la jouer d'ordinateur 'Dynasty Warriors 3' pour la Playstation 2. J'ai lire la livre plus tard. J'ai aime Liu Bei. Il est un homme gentile et honneur, et tres persistante. Lu Bu est formidable! Il est tres forte a guerre.

I needed a dictionary for honour, kingdoms, persistent, later and formidable. Should anyone wish to correct the spelling and grammar, please go ahead. If I could grasp the necessary words I would have said "I was first introduced to it by the computer game 'Dynasty Warriors 3' on the Playstation 2" instead of the "I liked". When I started this thread I couldn't have managed to write half of what I just did.

I shall send you a PM.

A few gramatical mistakes but overal quite good. I'll leave this to Jakkal. Better not to chime in on other peoples exercises.


English classes were my favorite in High school. I can still recite certain poems by heart. So I prepared you a bit of homework I hope you'll love (and thus learn easier).

Watch this video from 2:50 onwards and try to translate. The (lose) English translation is sung in the beginning. See if you get it right.


Here's the text if you want to do it by written text.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Les Allemands e'taient chez moi,
ils me dirent, "Signe toi,"
mais je n'ai pas peur;
j'ai repris mon arme.

J'ai change' cent fois de nom,
j'ai perdu femme et enfants
mais j'ai tant d'amis;
j'ai la France entie`re.

Un vieil homme dans un grenier
pour la nuit nous a cache',
les Allemands l'ont pris;
il est mort sans surprise.

As a second exercise, try to grasp the meaning of this song. No full translation required.



Lyrics:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

VOIR UN AMI PLEURER
(F. Rauber / J. Brel)

Jacques Brel (Belgium) - 1977


Bien sûr il y a les guerres d'Irlande
Et les peuplades sans musique
Bien sûr tout ce manque de tendres
Il n'y a plus d'Amérique
Bien sûr l'argent n'a pas d'odeur
Mais pas d'odeur me monte au nez
Bien sûr on marche sur les fleurs
Mais voir un ami pleurer!

Bien sûr il y a nos défaites
Et puis la mort qui est tout au bout
Nos corps inclinent déjà la tête
Étonnés d'être encore debout
Bien sûr les femmes infidèles
Et les oiseaux assassinés
Bien sûr nos cœurs perdent leurs ailes
Mais mais voir un ami pleurer!

Bien sûr ces villes épuisées
Par ces enfants de cinquante ans
Notre impuissance à les aider
Et nos amours qui ont mal aux dents
Bien sûr le temps qui va trop vite
Ces métro remplis de noyés
La vérité qui nous évite
Mais voir un ami pleurer!

Bien sûr nos miroirs sont intègres
Ni le courage d'être juifs
Ni l'élégance d'être nègres
On se croit mèche on n'est que suif
Et tous ces hommes qui sont nos frères
Tellement qu'on n'est plus étonnés
Que par amour ils nous lacèrent
Mais voir un ami pleurer!

If anyone wants to join in on this 'lesson' just post your answers under spoilers so that others can still give their answer.

[Jakkal]

Milady,

Votre traduction initiale est excellente! Comme vous possédez déjà la compréhension du texte, au fur et à mesure que votre vocabulaire s'enrichira, les blancs seront relegués au passé. Je vous suggère d'utiliser l'outil de traduction Google avec parcimonie car la traduction ainsi obtenue n'est pas toujours exacte d'un point de vue de structure et de syntaxe.

J'adore la (les) trois royaume(s)( il s'agit de l'utilisation du pluriel)! J'ai aime (é) (conjugaison du verbe au passé) la jouer d'ordinateur 'Dynasty Warriors 3' pour la Playstation 2. J'ai lire(lu) (conjugaison du verbe au passé) la (le) (l'utilisation du masculin - le- est lié livre , un livre, le livre) livre plus tard. J'ai aime (é) (conjugaison du verbe au passé) Liu Bei. Il est un homme gentile (gentil est masculin et gentille est féminin) et honneur (l'adjectif précis est honorable), et tres (très) persistante (obstiné pourrait être une meilleure option). Lu Bu est formidable! Il est tres (très) forte (fort pour le genre masculin, forte est pour le genre féminin) a (à la) guerre.

Lu Bu était toujours un objectif pour moi afin qu'il joigne mon clan. Sa puissance était telle qu'il pouvait changer le cours d'une bataille à lui seul. Je dois avouer que je n'ai pas terminé la lecture du livre de Romance of the three kingdoms, devant à la fois comprendre la signification des mots et de l'histoire dans un fil ou plusieurs personnages interviennent au sein d'une traduction du mandarin (ou cantonais?) Dans un autre d'idée, j'ai tenté de m'attaquer au Silmarillon de Tolkien, mais, encore une fois, beaucoup de noms et d'arbres généalogiques.

"I was first introduced to it by the computer game 'Dynasty Warriors 3' on the Playstation 2"

La traduction aurait pu ce lire comme suit:

J'ai été initié à ce dernier par le jeu Dynasty Warrior 3 sur la Playstation 3

Votre connaissance du français est vraiment très bonne. C'est en forgeant que l'on devient forgeron! Avec l'aide que vous recevez via ce thread (fil ou flux?) ce n'est qu'une question de temps avant que vous ne puissiez vous attaquer aux Misérables.

La nuit vient lentement nous enlacer de son mateau et sur ce, je vous souhaite une bonne soirée et demeure à votre disponibilité.

[Jakkal]

Peasant Phill,

Sois à l'aise de fournir ton assistance, le but est commun et en aucun temps je ne puis prétendre à la maitrise du français.

Cette idée d'y aller avec les chansons est excellente!!

[Moros]

Milady,

Votre traduction initiale est excellente! Comme vous possédez déjà la compréhension du texte, au fur et à mesure que votre vocabulaire s'enrichira, les blancs seront relegués au passé. Je vous suggère d'utiliser l'outil de traduction Google avec parcimonie car la traduction ainsi obtenue n'est pas toujours exacte d'un point de vue de structure et de syntaxe.

J'adore la (les) trois royaume(s)( il s'agit de l'utilisation du pluriel)! J'ai aime (é) (conjugaison du verbe au passé) la jouer d'ordinateur 'Dynasty Warriors 3' pour la Playstation 2. J'ai lire(lu) (conjugaison du verbe au passé) la (le) (l'utilisation du masculin - le- est lié livre , un livre, le livre) livre plus tard. J'ai aime (é) (conjugaison du verbe au passé) Liu Bei. Il est un homme gentile (gentil est masculin et gentille est féminin) et honneur (l'adjectif précis est honorable), et tres (très) persistante (obstiné pourrait être une meilleure option). Lu Bu est formidable! Il est tres (très) forte (fort pour le genre masculin, forte est pour le genre féminin) a (à la) guerre.

Lu Bu était toujours un objectif pour moi afin qu'il joigne mon clan. Sa puissance était telle qu'il pouvait changer le cours d'une bataille à lui seul. Je dois avouer que je n'ai pas terminé la lecture du livre de Romance of the three kingdoms, devant à la fois comprendre la signification des mots et de l'histoire dans un fil ou plusieurs personnages interviennent au sein d'une traduction du mandarin (ou cantonais?) Dans un autre d'idée, j'ai tenté de m'attaquer au Silmarillon de Tolkien, mais, encore une fois, beaucoup de noms et d'arbres généalogiques.

"I was first introduced to it by the computer game 'Dynasty Warriors 3' on the Playstation 2"

La traduction aurait pu ce lire comme suit:

J'ai été initié à ce dernier par le jeu Dynasty Warrior 3 sur la Playstation 3

Votre connaissance du français est vraiment très bonne. C'est en forgeant que l'on devient forgeron! Avec l'aide que vous recevez via ce thread (fil ou flux?) ce n'est qu'une question de temps avant que vous ne puissiez vous attaquer aux Misérables.

La nuit vient lentement nous enlacer de son mateau et sur ce, je vous souhaite une bonne soirée et demeure à votre disponibilité.

Perhaps one should explain the difference and conjugation of the passé composé and l'imparfait?

L'imparfait is similar to the simple past in English. For example she was nice, would be elle était gentille. Note that truely a lot of these verbs have irregular forms. However the conjugations/endings are pretty recongisable. The "Passé simple" which sounds as if it is the same tense as the simple past however is actually more similar to the past perfect but only used in very formal or archiac and written french. For the present perfect one uses the passé composé. Which means we use either avoir (to have) or être (to be) in combination with a verb. Again there are quite the exceptions. But again they are very recognisable due to them always being accompanied by a simple present form of être and avoir. The main verb itself most of the times end with "é". Sometimes in irregular verbs it can end on a different vowel, or not a vowel at all. Some examples. I have arrived would be 'Je suis arrivé'. I have won would be 'J'ai gagné'. An example of an irregular verb could be 'lire' which means to read: I have read that book would be 'J'ai lu ce livre'. I have made my homework would be 'J'ai fait (<Faire) mes devoirs'.

But perhaps some links are better idea, as I'm not good at explaining these kinds of things:
The imperfect in short: http://french.about.com/od/grammar/a/imperfect.htm
The passé composé in short: http://french.about.com/od/grammar/a/passecompose.htm

Or perhaps some youtube lessons will give you a better idea.





While you might not want to learn how to conjugate them correctly, I think it's best to learn to recognise them as both are very often used. Comprehension was you main goal anyway. Those exercises of Phill seem a good way to go. But I tought recognising the two most commonly used past tenses would be of some importance as well.

[frogbeastegg]

I accept the various translation challenges! As this is a Bank Holiday weekend, I'm spending most of today and tomorrow with my boyfriend. I'll begin to tackle the translation on Tuesday.

So I keep using the feminine forms? That's vaguely reassuring; I'm less likely to accidentally refer to myself as a man.

Jakkal, thanks for the corrections. I've read through them once quickly, and shall return to read them in detail on Tuesday. I shall attempt a proper reply then.

Moros, that explanation is very helpful. As with the corrections, I've read it once and will read it a second time. After a couple of weeks of this style of practice I do intend to sit down and start looking specifically at masculine/feminine, tenses, and so on. I think I will find that study easier if I am a bit more 'awake' to the language first. If I feel like there is some meaning and sense to the words they are more likely to stick - I hope. Looking at forms of words in isolation (like your examples) is definitely something I don't mind doing now, as the relevance of the examples helps.

[Peasant Phill]

I accept the various translation challenges! As this is a Bank Holiday weekend, I'm spending most of today and tomorrow with my boyfriend. I'll begin to tackle the translation on Tuesday.

Don't worry, I already have a new exercise ligned up. But that's for later in the week.

[frogbeastegg]

Later than expected, here's what I managed. It took me a while, and I was quite busy yesterday which did not help.

The songs are very difficult. Lots of unfamiliar words, and the structure is different to normal text. This is what I managed without help:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Les Allemands e'taient chez moi,
ils me dirent, "Signe toi,"
mais je n'ai pas peur;
j'ai repris mon arme.

J'ai change' cent fois de nom,
j'ai perdu femme et enfants
mais j'ai tant d'amis;
j'ai la France entie`re.

Un vieil homme dans un grenier
pour la nuit nous a cache',
les Allemands l'ont pris;
il est mort sans surprise.

The Germans [...] with me
I say "Sign"
I am not afraid
I take my weapon

I change [...] name
I [...] women and children
[...] friends
I [...] all of France

[...] man with a [...]
for the night we [...]
the Germans [...] [prize?]
he is death (or died?) without surprise

Bien sûr il y a les guerres d'Irlande
Et les peuplades sans musique
Bien sûr tout ce manque de tendres
Il n'y a plus d'Amérique
Bien sûr l'argent n'a pas d'odeur
Mais pas d'odeur me monte au nez
Bien sûr on marche sur les fleurs
Mais voir un ami pleurer!

Bien sûr il y a nos défaites
Et puis la mort qui est tout au bout
Nos corps inclinent déjà la tête
Étonnés d'être encore debout
Bien sûr les femmes infidèles
Et les oiseaux assassinés
Bien sûr nos cœurs perdent leurs ailes
Mais mais voir un ami pleurer!

Bien sûr ces villes épuisées
Par ces enfants de cinquante ans
Notre impuissance à les aider
Et nos amours qui ont mal aux dents
Bien sûr le temps qui va trop vite
Ces métro remplis de noyés
La vérité qui nous évite
Mais voir un ami pleurer!

Bien sûr nos miroirs sont intègres
Ni le courage d'être juifs
Ni l'élégance d'être nègres
On se croit mèche on n'est que suif
Et tous ces hommes qui sont nos frères
Tellement qu'on n'est plus étonnés
Que par amour ils nous lacèrent
Mais voir un ami pleurer!


Good [...] the wars in Ireland
and the [people?] without music
Good [...]
No more Americans
Good [something] gold has no [scent? Order?]
[but?] [...]
good [...] march [beneath?] the flowers
[...] see a friend [...]

Good [...]
And lots of death [all about?]
[...] again [...]
Good [...] infidel women
and the [...] assassins
good [...] hearts [...] (I remember ailes from somewhere and I can't put my finger on it)
[...]

Good [...] villages (villagers?) [...]
For children of 50 years
our [...] to help
[...] love [...] [teeth?]
Good [...] the weather changes quickly / seasons change quickly?
[...]
The truth [...]
[...]

Good [...] mirror of integrity?
Not the courage of [...]
Not the elegance of [...]
[...]
[...] men are all brothers?
[...]
[...]
[...]

I haven't posted the versions I made after looking words up. Since there was so much I didn't get it felt like cheating to claim those versions as my work.

The biggest error is bien = of course. I was remembering the school phrase Oui, sa va bien = yes, I'm good, where good is used in the English-American sense of well, happy, healthy, etc.

I also notice that the version of 'temps' which I remember from school increasingly makes little sense. I was taught that meant the weather, and we spent a lot of those years being forced to repeatedly go through common weather phrases (Il faite mouvais, il faite foid, il faite chaud - I can't remember the spelling at all!). Now it appears to be either seasons or time. Dictionary visit pending ...



Then the general conversation. I haven't had time to use a dictionary to start checking unknown words, so these are purely my own resources.

Votre traduction initiale est excellente! Comme vous possédez déjà la compréhension du texte, au fur et à mesure que votre vocabulaire s'enrichira, les blancs seront relegués au passé. Je vous suggère d'utiliser l'outil de traduction Google avec parcimonie car la traduction ainsi obtenue n'est pas toujours exacte d'un point de vue de structure et de syntaxe.

Your initial translation is excellent! You possess also the comprehension of text, [...] your vocabulary is enriched, the white [...]. I suggest utilising google translation [I would guess sparingly or parsimoniously] [...] the translation [...] not always exact on structure and syntax.

Lu Bu était toujours un objectif pour moi afin qu'il joigne mon clan. Sa puissance était telle qu'il pouvait changer le cours d'une bataille à lui seul. Je dois avouer que je n'ai pas terminé la lecture du livre de Romance of the three kingdoms, devant à la fois comprendre la signification des mots et de l'histoire dans un fil ou plusieurs personnages interviennent au sein d'une traduction du mandarin (ou cantonais?) Dans un autre d'idée, j'ai tenté de m'attaquer au Silmarillon de Tolkien, mais, encore une fois, beaucoup de noms et d'arbres généalogiques.

I struggle write badly with this one. I can get words here and there, and in a few places enough words to make a partial sentence.

The part I understand best is the last line: Silmarillion of Tolkien [with?], again [...], lots of names and family trees.

Votre connaissance du français est vraiment très bonne. C'est en forgeant que l'on devient forgeron! Avec l'aide que vous recevez via ce thread (fil ou flux?) ce n'est qu'une question de temps avant que vous ne puissiez vous attaquer aux Misérables.

Your understanding of French is true(accurate?) and good. [...]. With help you are receiving in this thread [...] question of [time?] before you attack 'Les Miserables'.

La nuit vient lentement nous enlacer de son mateau et sur ce, je vous souhaite une bonne soirée et demeure à votre disponibilité.

I don't manage very well with this one. I can recognise "the night" and "good evening".

Sois à l'aise de fournir ton assistance, le but est commun et en aucun temps je ne puis prétendre à la maitrise du français.

With this one I feel I am being guided by English words which sound similar, and possibly being mislead by them.
[...] assistance, the [...] is common and is [...] [there's temps again] I do not pretend to be a master of French.

Cette idée d'y aller avec les chansons est excellente!!

This idea [of yours?] with the songs is excellent!

[Peasant Phill]

You did reasonably well. I have absolutly no idea of the level of Fench taught in England but it appears you would be able to get around in a French speaking region.

I haven't posted the versions I made after looking words up. Since there was so much I didn't get it felt like cheating to claim those versions as my work.

Looking up words isn't cheating. You still need to tie those words together in meaningful sentences. You can't be expected to just instantly know a word or a turn of phrase.

Les Allemands e'taient chez moi,
j'ai perdu femme et enfants
j'ai la France entie`re.
The Germans [...] with me
I [...] women and children
I [...] all of France

It appears you have some trouble recognizing which verb is being conjugated. Not surprising really, There are a lot of rules and a lot more exceptions to those rules. être and avoir are the most important and you should at least know of there conjugations if you want to have an easier time understanding French. There's a reason we were drilled in their conjugations.

It's great that you tried to translate 'Voir un ami pleurer' but I realize that it's a really difficult text. I've looked around the net for a good English translation and I've found not a single one that didn't make blatant mistakes. I just wanted to see if you could extract the meaning out of this song. It's a test of undertanding and not just translating word for word. What is he actually saying? What's at the core of this song? It's possible to say this in one sentence.

The biggest error is bien = of course. I was remembering the school phrase Oui, sa va bien = yes, I'm good, where good is used in the English-American sense of well, happy, healthy, etc.

Bien sûr = of course, not just bien. It's an often used expression.

I also notice that the version of 'temps' which I remember from school increasingly makes little sense. I was taught that meant the weather, and we spent a lot of those years being forced to repeatedly go through common weather phrases (Il faite mouvais, il faite foid, il faite chaud - I can't remember the spelling at all!). Now it appears to be either seasons or time. Dictionary visit pending ...

Well, temps can mean time or weather, seasons are seasons (it's remarkable how much French and English look alike, I wonder if it's someting historical ). Damn those words with multiple meanings. And I can't help it: its il fait_ mauvais, il fait_ froid et il fait_ chaud.



As promised, the new exercise. I'll stick to Jacques Brel because ... well I just like to see him perform (and I hope like his performance too).
Listen to the song, go over the text and see how much you understand. Focus specially on the verbs and what their basic form would be. And in doubt, just think of the English words that resembles it the closest.
Again it's not necessary to make a full translation, just see how many sentences you understand even if they have holes in them. For comparison, you can find the translation below.


The text.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Ne me quitte pas
Il faut oublier
Tout peut s'oublier
Qui s'enfuit déjà
Oublier le temps
Des malentendus
Et le temps perdu
A savoir comment
Oublier ces heures
Qui tuaient parfois
A coups de pourquoi
Le coeur du bonheur
Ne me quitte pas
Ne me quitte pas
Ne me quitte pas
Ne me quitte pas

Moi je t'offrirai
Des perles de pluie
Venues de pays
Où il ne pleut pas
Je creuserai la terre
Jusqu'après ma mort
Pour couvrir ton corps
D'or et de lumière
Je ferai un domaine
Où l'amour sera roi
Où l'amour sera loi
Où tu seras reine
Ne me quitte pas
Ne me quitte pas
Ne me quitte pas
Ne me quitte pas

Ne me quitte pas
Je t'inventerai
Des mots insensés
Que tu comprendras
Je te parlerai
De ces amants-là
Qui ont vu deux fois
Leurs coeurs s'embraser
Je te raconterai
L'histoire de ce roi
Mort de n'avoir pas
Pu te rencontrer
Ne me quitte pas
Ne me quitte pas
Ne me quitte pas
Ne me quitte pas

On a vu souvent
Rejaillir le feu
D'un ancien volcan
Qu'on croyait trop vieux
Il est paraît-il
Des terres brûlées
Donnant plus de blé
Qu'un meilleur avril
Et quand vient le soir
Pour qu'un ciel flamboie
Le rouge et le noir
Ne s'épousent-ils pas
Ne me quitte pas
Ne me quitte pas
Ne me quitte pas
Ne me quitte pas

Ne me quitte pas
Je ne vais plus pleurer
Je ne vais plus parler
Je me cacherai là
A te regarder
Danser et sourire
Et à t'écouter
Chanter et puis rire
Laisse-moi devenir
L'ombre de ton ombre
L'ombre de ta main
L'ombre de ton chien
Ne me quitte pas
Ne me quitte pas
Ne me quitte pas
Ne me quitte pas.

Here's the translation

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Moros]

Just something to show how beautifull French and Le Chanson can be:

[frogbeastegg]

I have absolutly no idea of the level of Fench taught in England

My name is ...
The weather is ...
I will order the roast chicken
I live at ...
My brother/sister is called ...
My pet is a [insert common animal]
This is a [insert common school room item here]
Counting up to 100, in such a manner that you needed to count your way up to the required number instead of knowing that 20=20
A brief glance at telling the time
A few basic colours
How to go into a patisserie and request random foodstuffs.
How to answer a phone if you are working in a hotel. Yes working, not trying to book in to.
Tu and vous.
I like/hate [insert common words like TV here]
I am good at/weak at [insert common items like lesson types here]
A small handful of country names, and a smaller handful of nationalities
A very brief look at the major body parts.
They kept making us play bingo. None of us knew what we were meant to be doing ...
A confusing explanation of how the currency worked

And that's about it. I have no idea where my current understanding comes from - none of it has any relation to what I was taught. Additionally, very little of it has stuck. I don't know my numbers very well, and can't remember how to say most of those things.

I just wanted to see if you could extract the meaning out of this song. It's a test of undertanding and not just translating word for word. What is he actually saying? What's at the core of this song? It's possible to say this in one sentence.

I'd say it's a soldier's song, one of those pieces which reflects on everything which is lost by a soldier marching off to war. Or one of those 'war is hell' songs, e.g. Rolf Harris and his famous 'two little boys'.

Anyway, thanks for the notes and corrections. I shall try the next exercise tomorrow.

Just something to show how beautifull French and Le Chanson can be:

Nice

French has a venerable history as a musical language. i have heard some attempted reconstructions of the chansons de geste and other surviving medieval songs. Some are in Anglo-French, many in Langue d'oc, and some in Langue d'oil. Out of the three, Langue d'oil is the closest ancestor of modern French. Here's an example, one of Thibaut de Champagne's pieces. The words are accurate, the music probably not.

[Peasant Phill]

...And that's about it. I have no idea where my current understanding comes from - none of it has any relation to what I was taught. Additionally, very little of it has stuck. I don't know my numbers very well, and can't remember how to say most of those things.

your understanding of French is really excellent if that's the extent you were thaught in school. It means you probably have a knack for languages or French in particular.

I'd say it's a soldier's song, one of those pieces which reflects on everything which is lost by a soldier marching off to war. Or one of those 'war is hell' songs, e.g. Rolf Harris and his famous 'two little boys'.

Anyway, thanks for the notes and corrections. I shall try the next exercise tomorrow.

I guess it could be viewed as a soldier's song if you squint a bit and look at it from far but that isn't the original intention of the song. Brel sums up many injustices and problems in the world (war in Ireland, ravaged cities, infidelity, ...) where we as humans feel powerless against. But according to Brel, he feels the most powerless, he is the most emotionaly affected when he sees a friend crying. Hence ending each verse with Mais voir un ami pleurer, But to watch a friend crying ...